Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #22

[Papaya]

Maybe I'll try a longer first A time tomorrow and if I get a short nap, a shorter 2nd A time.  If I get a long first nap then I'll go with the short CN like you suggested.

Sounds like a good plan

If that ends up working, then as his first A time gets to 5 hrs and he is taking a long nap, I would drop the second nap, correct???  I can't believe he is heading toward one nap - SCARY!  He's just growing up so fast!!!

Don't they just! Yes, somewhere between 4.5 and 5 hours - many LOs will lengthen their night out when they first go to one nap. We started with 4.5 hours before nap and 4.75 after (presuming the nap was good) and a 12.5 - 13 hr night.

[oliversmommy]

DS had a short night last night (woke up at 6:25 so only 10 hrs sleep) - so I didn't lengthen his A time as planned; I put him down after 4 hr 5 min A time and he is still sleeping after 1 hr 40 min (he never naps this long!!!)

So we'll be trying the short CN this PM.  Question though - how do you work in BF/solids with the CN and a very short A time to BT???  We do 4 BF/day - WU, after naps, and BT - and 3 solids meals about 1-1 1/2 hrs after BF.  So if I nurse after the CN, I won't have much time to do a meal and then the BT feed (which obviously I want him to be hungry for so he will take a full feed and last the night).  I could try BF before the CN but that will put him to sleep for sure . . . any ideas/suggestions???

Oh he's up . . . gotta go!

[Papaya]

Sorry, just saw this now. FWIW, I would have done the feed before the CN today - there's nothing wrong with him falling asleep when feeding occasionally

[oliversmommy]

Yesterday went well - long AM nap, capped CN in PM, went down great at BT after short A time.  DS was not happy to be awakened from CN, so I think nursing him afterwards worked well b/c it soothed him/improved his mood.  I gave him a small dinner (fruit only) and he nursed his usual amount of time before BT which was good.

However I do think that if this becomes our new "routine", nursing after naps may no longer work b/c he will have to go too long b/t "meals" and I don't want him to shorten his first nap due to hunger.  Any suggestions on how to work in nursing and solids around these new nap times?  I don't mind nursing before naps once in a while but don't think this should become the norm; plus DS really likes to nurse when he wakes up.  I realize that I may have to let go of having a routine during this transition (sigh) as each day may be different for a while. 

So our old EASY looked like this:
WU ~6:30, up and BF ~6:50
solids ~8:30
nap ~10:00-11:30 (if we're lucky)
BF ~11:30
solids ~1:00
nap ~3:30-4:10 (sometimes capped to preserve BT)
BF ~4:10
solids ~5:10
BF ~7:00
BT ~7:30

So if our new EASY looks like this . . .
WU ~6:30, up and BF ~6:50
nap ~10:45-12:15
nap ~4:45-5:05 (capped)
BF ~7:00
BT ~7:30

Where to fit in two more BF and the solids???  I checked out sample routines however most bubs w/ a similar routine/A times are older (11-12 mos) and down to 2-3 BF/day, and I think DS is too young for less than 4 BF/day (he's almost 9.5 mos). 

If you think this is more appropriate for the EASY board let me know!

Thanks for your guidance Papaya!  It is much appreciated!!!
 

[oliversmommy]

Another random question - when LOs go down to one nap/day, how long is considered a restorative nap (long enough to not need a CN)

I feel like I've hijacked this thread - I hope you mamas out there with LOs in this transition are doing okay!!!

[trinity33]

Hi,

I last posted when we did the 3-2 transition and now I think we are in 2-1 transition trouble. Dropped ds 3 nap at 5 months after a month of happy 4.30 wu for 1 plus hour then back to sleep for 45 mins. This pattern has started again recently along with nap refusals.

For the last 3 months we have been capping am nap first at 1 hour and for the last month at 45 mins in order to get a good pm nap and stop ot at bt. So our easy has been

Wu somewhere between 5-6, despite trying lots of things have never cracked this since 3 months old
7 bottle
8 breakfast
9.45 nap 45 mins, capped
12 lunch
1.45 bottle
2 sleep 2 hours
4 lunch
7 bottle
7.30 bt

The last 2 weeks ds has started resisting naps and taking shorter pm ones, 1-1.45. The shorter pm nap the more nw we get.

He slept 12 hours the night before last and so did one nap next day  i then did slightly early bt, although he didn't seem massively tired. screamed for 2.5 hours at bt, so today figured he would def need 2 naps as such a short night sleep, he took 15 mins to go down for am nap then refused the pm one. Kept trying for 1.5 hours! Then gave up. Needless to say ot at bt and he's already woken up twice this evening. 

I'm dreading managing this transition, esoecially as he's now at nursery so I can't eagle watch his cues and he sometimes gets disturbed naps from other babies ( and vice versa I'm sure!)

Sorry for long post, just wanted to give some background. I'm thinking tomorrow of keeping him up until he shows tired signs in am and then letting him sleep as long as poss, hoping it will get us to bedtime, but I just don't know. Argggh irate all the uncertainty that comes with transitions. Just makes you feel like you don't know what to do for the best for them.
 

[tahiranisa]

I have a 15 month old that has been a great sleeper for some months now. (After a terrible first 11 months or so.)
 Here is a good day schedule:
Wake: 6am
Snack: 6:30
Breakfast: 7:30
First Nap: 9am - 10am
Lunch: 12
Second nap: 2 - 3 sometimes 1:30 - 3
Dinner: 5:30 or 6
Bedtime: 7
STTN

Lately we have had a few 5:30 wakeups after he resettles at 4:45 (maybe 2-3x/week for two weeks). He is teething and has been for 3 weeks. We have had two days where he completely skipped a nap or pushed the schedule by more than 1.5 hours in two weeks. Mostly, I would say this baby still really needs two naps. My husband thinks the suggestion that the baby might want one nap is crazy. I tend to agree but I am not sure if a few teeth can really explain this. I feel like for three weeks i have been watching things get harder and harder with regards to nap/bedtime and I am just not sure that teething is the only culprit.

Advice?

[oliversmommy]

Trinity33, I have no advice for you (I'm a FTM and we are in the 2:1 transition here as well) but I'm definitely sending hugs your way   I'm really dreading this transition as well - it's so hard when you finally get into a good routine and things are going smoothly and you're feeling good and then bam! everything changes.  (Also sending hugs for having such an early bird!   I'm sure the wonderful BW ladies with experience will be able to help you out.  Hang in there!!!

Tahiranisa, hugs to you too!   I'm wondering if maybe your LO is ready for an A time increase for the morning A time?  I'm not sure what "normal" A times are for a bub your age but I believe it's longer than 3 hours.  A first A time that is too short is also a possible cause of EW.  What do you think???

[tahiranisa]

I think I agree with you about morning A time. I used to stick to four hours (which I think is still shy) but that was when he used to wake at 5. He moved to a six am wake-up and still wanted to sleep at 9. It was working so I stuck with it but it isn't anymore! Need to know a recommended A time to shoot for.

[oliversmommy]

So the last two mornings we got OT naps (35 min) after 4 hr 25 min and 4 hr 20 min A times.  The day before we got a nice long nap after 4 hr 5 min A time, but this was after a short night so I figured it would be okay to push out the A time a little bit the next day (which resulted in the 2 days of OT AM naps).  Do you think I should pull back the A time a little or stick with same A time (4 hr 20 min)  The 2 days prior to the long nap, we got UT naps - 50 min after 4 hr A time, and 55 min after 4 hr 15 min A time.  So I figured he could handle the 4 hr 25 min A time after a good night . . . maybe he was still needing to catch up on sleep???  Not sure what to do tomorrow! 

Tahiranisa - just read your post while I was typing - I'll see if I can find the list of A times and post it for you . . .

[oliversmommy]

Here's the info on A times - couldn't find anything about average A times for toddlers . . .

With regards to whether it's time to extend A time, your lo is the best gauge of that. Signs are if he's starting to be more difficult to get to sleep for his naps, or if his naps start to be cut short – this means that his body’s not quite tired enough to relax enough for a longer, more refreshing nap. It's always best to increase A time in increments, usually of around 10-15 mins. Any more could result in an overtired & cranky lo.

Here is a general guideline of what you can expect regarding awake time for your lo: (remember some babies get a little more, some a little less. It's just a rough guideline)

Awake time for babies
Newborn 50-60 mins
1 month 60 mins-hour and 15
2 months 1 hour and 15 - 20 mins
3 months 1 hour and 20 - 30 mins
4 months 1 hour and 45 - 2 hours
5 months 2 hours - 2.25 hours
Late 5 months/early 6 months 2.25-2.5 hours
6.5 - 7 months 2.75-3 hours. Some are getting more.
8 - 10 months 3 - 4 hours. Some are getting more.
11 - 12 months 3.5 -4.5 hours. Some are getting more if moved early to 1 nap

***Remember these are guidelines, NOT rules, so if you feel that your baby is not yet ready for these A times, please do not force them, as this will cause further problems***

[Papaya]

sorry I haven't been around for a couple of days!

Oliversmommy, we did morning cn and long pm, so it was easy to still do bfs after both naps. Tbh, I can't really think of a logical way to avoid doing bf before sleep if you do long am - but it doesn't have to be just before sleep. Could you do milk at 10, lunch after nap, milk again at 3.30/4, and dinner straight after the cn?

when LOs go down to one nap/day, how long is considered a restorative nap (long enough to not need a CN)

You want 2hrs+ when you first go to one nap - anything less is probably OT Some babies will do 3.

And re the morning A time: I think I would pull it back again slightly tomorrow and see how it goes. You don't want him building up too much OT!

Trinity33, how old is your LO?

Tahiranisa, I think Olivermommy is spot on about the morning A time   Just noticing your LO is 15 months - did you know there is a support thread for the 2-1 transition in Sleeping for Toddlers? You might get better advice there from other mamas with older LOs. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=215407.0

[tahiranisa]

Ha ha ha. I thought I was on the toddler board. This place gets confusing some times!

[trinity33]

Hiya,

Ds is just over 10.5 months.

So despite refusing pm nap completely yesterday he had a pretty good night. 2 nw before 12 but then slept til 5.10, then back til 5.50.  Not as bad as I expected. I was going to try and do one nap today, but he was really, really tired by 9.30 so figured hangover from yesterday and not to push it. So today's easy...

5.50 wu
9.45 nap 45 mins
2.00 nap - woke for 5 mins at 45 but just put himself back to sleep

Many thanks in advance

Just to update, he slept 1.5 hours for pm nap

But then resisted bt and took 1.5 hours to go to sleep, just kept flopping around, then getting frustrated and standing up. So finally went to sleep at 8.30

I have absolutely no idea what to say to nursery to do for his naps tomorrow!

[oliversmommy]

Papaya, thanks for your answers/suggestions - very helpful!   Although I won't have to worry about nursing times if I keep getting short naps!  I did a shorter first A time today of 4 hrs and STILL got an OT (35 min) nap!  Ugh!  So I guess I'll keep pulling back the A time until I get a good long nap.  I'm thinking we're still dealing with OT from the last few days, b/c how did I get UT naps on 4+ hrs A time just a few days ago???  If only our LOs would be more logical   DS is still sleeping great at night (knock on wood) so I really can't complain.  I have a feeling things will get much worse when we are in the middle of the transition!