Need help/support for 3 month old NW/EW's

[Oliviasmum2]

I really am at a loss of what to do with my little DD who is 13 weeks old. I have been trying to implement baby whisperer techniques since she was 6 weeks old and have been following the EASY routine but nothing seems to be working to help fix the NW's/ EW's.
I'm feeling really discouraged and want to give up on the whole thing (although I really really want this to work and use a more gentle method with her). I would love some support/ advice from the people here which will hopefully give me some renewed enthusiasm.

The problem - Night Wakings
She currently goes to sleep between 6.30pm and 7.30pm depending on how our day has gone and the time we started in the morning.
She wakes for a feed between 9.45 and 10.30 (usually takes a normal amount)
Then wakes between 1.00 and 2.00am (normal feed amount) then again at 4.00/4.30am (only a quarter of what her normal feed is).
I am completely fine with doing all of the above night feeds and understand that this amount is normal for her age. However, after she wakes at 4.00/4.30am, she is normally difficult to put back to sleep and when she does go back, she wakes up every 15 or 30mins until morning time. So she usually wakes at 4.30, 5.00, 5.30, 6.00. When she gets up at 6.00am I start the day and feed her again (I have no problem starting at 6.00am every day if this is her normal wake up time).
What I'm really struggling with is being up from 4.00am every morning.

I cant post a typical EASY day as it varies so much depending on the time she wakes up in the morning and how long her naps are. However, she does sleep for between 1.5 hours - 2 hours for each of her 3 naps plus she has a catnap between 4.30 and 5.15pm.
She doesn't transition well at all for her naps so the only way I get her to sleep that long is literally sitting by her cot for EVERY nap for nearly the whole time and patting her when I can see her start to stir.
Her activity time varies depending on the time of day, I try to make her go 1.5 hours A time (especially before the first nap of the day) but sometimes she manages 1 hour 20 mins.
I have just started moving her to a 3.5 hour EASY as up until 2 weeks ago, she was eating less and less at each feed when we were on a 3 hour EASY. She is still not eating loads but its getting better now she is a little hungrier.

Questions:
Should I try PU/PD now that she is 3 months? Shush/pat doesn't work in the early morning when I'm trying to put her back to sleep.
Is she having too much sleep in the day?
Am I helping her sleep too much but patting her every time she moves during naps so she needs this during the night too?
Has she learned to wake up at these time during the night and I should start to drop some feeds?

Sorry for the long post, I have read this forum every day since she was 5 weeks old and can see that people get a huge amount of support and excellent advice so I'm hoping someone can look at our situation with a fresh pair of eyes.
Thanks

[becj86]

However, after she wakes at 4.00/4.30am, she is normally difficult to put back to sleep and when she does go back, she wakes up every 15 or 30mins until morning time. So she usually wakes at 4.30, 5.00, 5.30, 6.00.

This frequency of waking suggests some kind of discomfort to me and that would be a reason as to why shush/pat isn't working at that time. Its the coldest part of the night - could she be cold? How is she fed? This is when gas was at its worst for DS when he was small as I was so engorged at the 4am feed that he'd take in a lot of air along with his milk...

She doesn't transition well at all for her naps so the only way I get her to sleep that long is literally sitting by her cot for EVERY nap for nearly the whole time and patting her when I can see her start to stir.

Is she swaddled? She will have to learn this transition trick sooner or later, but short naps can be developmental up until around 6 months of age. Honestly, I'd leave when she's asleep and go back in if she calls out and just give her the opportunity to transition on her own.

I don't think the NW/NF's are habitual, they're quite normal, well spaced, etc. You could try a dream feed around 9pm if you want to try to shift her longest stretch without feeding further into the night. Are you cluster feeding before bed? That was a massive help for DS to sleep longer from when I put him down for the night. I didn't do the DF as I would go to sleep before it would be 'due', but it works well for a lot of babies.

[Oliviasmum2]

Hi there,

Thanks for your reply. Interesting you mention the temperature at that time of night.... we live in a very hot country however it does get cooler quite a bit at night but the A/C in her room is always set to quite cold. Perhaps I will try her sleeping bag tonight to see if that makes a difference (I have tried the swaddle a good few times and she hates it and tries to get out of it).

She is formula fed and does pass wind quite a lot in the night around the time she wakes up frequently, she doesnt seem in pain with it but maybe its annoying her and this is what's waking her as you suggest.
Apart from burping her well at the NF's is there anything else I can do to relieve gas discomfort in the night?

I was cluster feeding her in the evenings up to 8 weeks but dropped it then as the book suggests. Is it a good idea to pick it back up again?
Thanks

[becj86]

You could try a slower teat for night feeds if it doesn't add too much time to the feed - that should slow the flow down a bit. I'm sorry I don't know a lot about bottle feeding, having BF'd DS but burping well after feeds was important for us too.

I only ask about the cluster feeding as it worked so well for DS that we did it til he was around 9 months old

[Oliviasmum2]

OK, the last few nights have been just as bad.... she has woken at 10.00, 1.00, 4.00, 4.30, 5.00, 5.20, 5.40, 6.00 then started the day at 6.15
This is so exhausting as I literally just doze back off to sleep for a few minutes and she then starts crying again. Also, I have had to go back to work and I don't feel I can continue getting so little sleep and having to be in the office for 8.00am.

I have tried burping her really well after her night feeds, I manage to get a burp up but she is still very gassy.
I am not sure if we have a paci issue??? She usually falls asleep with the paci for naps and bedtime, no issues with her waking when it falls out for naps and the early part of the night however, after the 4am feed when she is waking so much I put the paci back in and she falls asleep again for a short time (I'm assuming until it falls out), I then re-plug and it happens again.

Do you think I need to get rid of the paci completely to eliminate this as an issue?
I have changed the teat size in the night feeds but it hasn't made a difference, I have given her an extra blanket just in case she was cold - not made a difference. I have also started cluster feeding in the evening before bed.
Today, I am going to try and extend her activity time a bit to 1 hour 45mins as long as she has had a good nap before hand.

Is there anything else I should be doing?

[becj86]

I have tried burping her really well after her night feeds, I manage to get a burp up but she is still very gassy.

What about infacol or similar to help get the gas up?

What time is she going to bed for the night?

[Oliviasmum2]

I do use Infacol, have done for a number of weeks as she literally cant burp on her own. I did have about a week of not using it in the night as I was trying to keep her as sleepy as possible but I started using it again around a week ago.
Re: bedtime, it really does depend on the time of her catnap, her wake up time in the morning and how long her naps have been in the day but its between 6.30 and 7.30pm. I am trying to get it closer to 7.00/7.30ish as I can feed her before bed and she then doesnt wake up before dreamfeed time.

Do you think there is any chance she sleeps too much in the day?
Yesterday she had 2 2.5hour naps and 1 1hour nap.

I have also tried to get her to 1.45 awake time today, she has managed it twice but just before the third nap she did 1.35 awake time.

Looking at the amount she is waking in the early morning, do you think this is all down to discomfort instead of something to do with the EASY routine?

[becj86]

Looking at the amount she is waking in the early morning, do you think this is all down to discomfort instead of something to do with the EASY routine?

Yes, I do think its most likely discomfort.

I would be keeping her day naps to around 2hr max - longer and the naps could be robbing night sleep but it doesn't seem like that to me. 3 good solid naps is what she should be on now though. Could you post her EASY from yesterday just in this format:
6 - wake & E
7:40 - S
10 - wake & E

DF time is just meant to be around 3hr after she goes to sleep for the night - no need to shift BT to fit DF

[Oliviasmum2]

OK our day yesterday was:

5.55 - woke up
6.30 - Eat
7.25 - 9.45 - sleep
10.00 - Eat
11.20 - 1.40 - sleep
1.40 - Eat
3.25 - 4.15 - sleep
5.00 - Eat
5.45 - 6.10 - fell asleep in car as had to go out
7.00 - Eat
7.20 - sleeping

With this routine, she woke at 8.45, 10.15 (feed), 1.00 (feed), 3.45, 4.30 (feed), 5.00, 5.45, 6.10 - up for the day
She seems to go very easily 3.5 hours in between feeds and I have started to leave it this long as if its 3 hours she really isnt interested in drinking much of the bottle.

Re: the dreamfeed, I try to get her to go to sleep around 7 as then she will last until a 10pm or 10.30 feed which will mean she goes longer at night. If I put her to bed at 6.00, she then wakes at 9.00/9.30 for a feed and usually gets fed 1 additional time in the night as she got this feed an hour earlier.

If she is going to sleep at 6pm, do you think I should cluster feed again but dreamfeeding her at 8pm and then again at 10pm? Or should you only dreamfeed once?

Thanks again for your replied and help.

[becj86]

If she is going to sleep at 6pm, do you think I should cluster feed again but dreamfeeding her at 8pm and then again at 10pm? Or should you only dreamfeed once?

I would actually cluster feed during the afternoon like this:
1.40 - Eat
3.25 - 4.15 - sleep
4:15 - Eat
5:45 - eat
6 - bed

I'd do a DF at 9 if you want to do a DF.
That 3rd nap will cut down to be a bit shorter as she gets closer to 4 months of age too.

[Oliviasmum2]

Wanted to give an update, the last 2 nights have been a massive improvement!!!! The first night she woke at 1.00am (fed) and 4.00am (fed) then up for the day at 6.30am.
Last night I heard her wake at 1.00am but I knew it was a mantra cry, she did this on and off for 45mins and then I went in and fed her at 1.45am, then she woke only 20mins off our start of the day time at 5.40am. I gave her only a small feed and she went back to sleep until 6.15am.

This is a huge improvement on how it has been (6+ NW's) so thank you for your help.
The things I have done differently are; upped her A time to 1 hour 45 mins (unless she has had a bad nap and then she has less), changed the teat size back to number 1 for night feeds (she drinks a bit less but has no gas at all) and cluster feed in the evening before bed.

The thing I am still really not confident with is the mantra cry. I must admit that up until the last 2 nights, I have not let her cry at all without me going in (even if I know its a mantra cry). Last night she did what I really think is a mantra cry for 45mins and then I gave in and went to her, the cry is definitely not an 'I need you cry', it sounds like a moan, lots of stopping and starting, doesnt escalate.
I am just so worried about breaking her trust but I know I am never letting her settle alone.

Even if she is mantra crying for an hour plus in the middle of the night, would you still suggest I dont go in unless it starts to change? Is there a time limit I should put on it?
Also, if she is mantra crying for an hour + does this mean her sleep is very distrubed?

Thanks

[becj86]

Those are much better nights

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64160.0 - You seem to have a good handle on the mantra cry.
I don't know - DS never went that long... maybe he was good and tired. I would probably go in and shush/pat to help her settle so she's not losing too much sleep but give her the chance to settle first. The argument against going in is twofold: one, if you always go in, LO doesn't get to practise settling; and two, if you go in too early, you may be disturbing LO's settling. If she's been trying to settle for so long though, I think she still needs some assistance. I will ask around to see if there's a consensus on that though.

[Khalam's Mama]

What happens when you go in at the mantra? If she gets upset you know you should have waited.

[Oliviasmum2]

That's useful to know. It really depends, sometimes I have picked her up when I think she is mantra crying and she literally just falls asleep in a few seconds. Other times she gets annoyed.
I think I'm going to see if she can settle herself after 15/20mins and if she doesnt within this time, go in and try and comfort her, what do you think?

She is now consistently waking up only twice after the dreamfeed - 1.00am and 4.00am and then up for the day at 6.00am.
I would really love to drop the 1.00am feed (although she doesnt take much at either waking), as she literally wakes up bang on the dot every night. Just wondering if this is habitual or should I keep feeding at both wakings for now?
I was thinking of trying W2S for the 1.00am waking as at least I know exactly what time it is so I can set my alarm 1 hour before - do you think this is appropriate?

[becj86]

I was thinking of trying W2S for the 1.00am waking as at least I know exactly what time it is so I can set my alarm 1 hour before - do you think this is appropriate?

Yes, give it a go. If she wakes though, I'd still feed her - its pretty normal to have that many night feeds at this age.