Sleep and EASY Support for spirited babies

[Skadiver13]

Hi all I just wanted to see what you all thought. I think my LO is a  mix of spirited and textbook, it sometimes depends on the situation can this be the case? Do you find spirited babies have unusually high A times? My LO is 6.5 months today and is at 3hr A and I'm needing to up it I think because for the past 2 weeks he's been waking up at 5:30 then 4:30 now it's 3:45. Needless to say we're both exhausted. I think he is going through some mental leaps right now. Just wanted to see if you all have experienced that.

[Canadian_Mom]

Hi there!!
DS2 is a mixture of spirited and textbook and currently we are at 3hr, 2hr40min, 3hr for our A times (he is 5 months old).  I really don't know if spirited LOs on average have higher A times.  My girlfriend has a fully spirited DD and she has always been a high sleep needs girl!  Maybe try posting in the EASY forum if you need more thoughts??  It is hard to know sometimes when it is time to up those A times!!  Hugs!
HTH!

[becj86]

I have seen some incredibly low sleep needs spiriteds and some really high sleep needs ones too. The thing with spirited LO's is more that they experience things 'more' - so emotions are generally stronger and more overwhelming than other kids (not to negate others' emotions at all).

Mental leaps can mess with sleep regardless of temperament...

Temperament can come out in different situations - DS is a spirited angel, so angel for most of the sleep related matters and spirited for every moment he's awake. It was really hard to get him to wind down and relax enough to sleep when he was 6 months old, but once he was calm enough, he was really happy to lie down and sleep - he seemed to know he needed it.

Spiriteds also often struggle with transitions from one activity to another (often the reason getting them to sleep is tricky).

[badpixie]

my lo has low sleep needs, rarely sleep more than 10 hours at night, and has consistently had high A times. He definitely goes on that EW loop, - getting earlier and earlier every morning - when he needs his A times extending.

[Jessleigh]

Hey Mamas! Just jumping on for moral support...In regards to sleep, i agree it varies in spiriteds. Mine has always been low on A times and gets into OT cycles VERY easily.

Which is the reason for my 'popping in.' We are in another either OT cycle or UT/OT and i haven't sorted out which. I feel like i have the hardest time knowing what she needs lately. I can do the same A time and get extremely different results every day. I feel like I'm always on guard with getting her OS and i always give her at least an hour at home with low key play before nap if we've been out. But I often feel like all my efforts are for not. I often feel alone in this as none of my friends have trouble with their LO's and sleep.

It's hard when i see my friends out late with their LO's or they put them down late for a nap bc they were out running around and their LO's still take that 2hr nap, whereas, if i don't walk on egg shells with her, i'm doomed to get 35/40min OT or OS naps. It just gets exhausting. Maybe I'm trying too hard. Not sure if anyone else feels like this with their LO??

I've been on the naps board and i think i stump everyone who tries to help me. She's a mystery with sleep!

We were doing a great week of 2 naps either 1.5-2hrs with only 3hrs 15mins A time (i was seriously on cloud 9! BEST napping she's EVER done!). Then suddenly one nap was 30mins, then the next, and now a week later, we've been doing short naps where i have to APOP just to get her some sleep.

Maybe I'm totally missing it? Maybe what i think are OT signs are just how spiriteds are? Maybe her A times really are too low? Her movements are jerky a lot. Just gets super wound up really easily. If she sees a dog or cat, its over. Every limb is jerking 1000miles per minute and she's bouncing and screeching like crazy. If she hears a plastic bag or tin foil or the blender she freaks. I can't blow dry my hair with her in the room. Sometimes i seriously wonder if theirs something wrong with her. But there's not. She's just so sensitive.

Am i just being too uptight? Are babies just sometimes super highstrung and i need to lighten up and be ok with her getting wound up? Maybe im so worried about OS all the time that she's understimulated...I know I'm thinking myself in circles.

Sorry for the vent. I feel like most of the time I'm ok with the fact that that's just how she is, but this last week has been a bit stressful. Just needed a little BW support.

[becj86]

Lots of big squishy BW hugs xx

A lot of it sounds like OS to me. She's pretty sensitive to OT too, from what you're writing.

DS was like that with noises, until he knew what was making the noise and how. So with the blender, I'd hold him and show him the blender, then show how I plug it in and press the button and show I can shut it off again. I wonder though, if she's also got some kind of sensory thing since she's jumping at some reasonably commonplace noises she's experienced before? Here are some links you may find helpful: sensory integration dysfunction- when los react strongly and Anyone want to discuss highly sensitive children? 

Have you tried squeezing her limbs as a massage to try and help calm them? I have an hilarious video of L flapping his arms up and down as he walked - everyone was amazed he could stay standing let alone walk because he was flapping his arms so vigorously it would shake his whole body. He still does it now but less frequently...

I tried to find ways to help L calm down rather than preventing the OS - nice tight hugs (a simple but effective suggestion stolen from RYSC) work really well here, so when L is OS, I can usually wrestle with him and get him into a hug or at least have a big cuddle when he gets upset and turns to tears. Often I'd combine that with a calm voice explaining what's happening.

[Jessleigh]

Interesting ... She's not quite as extreme as the hypersensitivity I read about. She's fine w tastes and touch and lights, etc. but I do wonder about noise. Whenever we go to a social gathering she always very cautious and observant first and if ppl get in her space too quickly she gets aggitated. But eventually she warms up.

Good suggestions about showing her the things that bother her? Ie blender. I've done this before but I think I just need to be mindful to continue to do it to help her.


Question: would u say she's ot when she wakes acting hyper? I mean, just carrying her from one room to the next her legs are kicking, arms flapping. She's crawling all over the place but then pauses to grab her blankie, suck her thumb and roll on the ground. She's happy one minutes, agitated or frustrated the next. Plus she's always yawning now from the start of every wake up time.

Does this sound ot or OS to you? Carried over from previous days? She's having to have ebt of 6/6:30 but generally gets 11-11.5 hours at night and still wakes like this. Dh says, she's a baby! She's gonna act crazy!  But sometimes I wonder ....

[jennfullwood]

Hello Mommas,

I'm new to this board, but have been reading it for the past few days. I have a very spirited nearly 8 month old boy who is extremely active. We are having a horrendous time sleeping at night, despite all my efforts with a good EASY since birth. I've posted on the main EASY board and am getting great advice there, but just wanted to join in here for some extra support. I'm exhausted and discouraged.

Jessleigh, it seems like our babies have much in common. My baby is very sensitive and gets extrememly hyper. He can't slow down. I miss his tired cues bc there pretty much are none until he's ready to crash. His activity times see to be rapidly increasing, almost too much. Apparently has pretty high A times for his age.

Do any mothers on here have a sample routine that you have used for your spirited baby with a 3 hour 30 A time? I am having problems fitting two naps into the day and still making bedtime. It seems like maybe my baby needs a full A time before bed, but I'm still trying to figure that one out. The short PM nap at the end of the day seems to lend to OT by bedtime, but I can't get my baby to down easily without a longer A time. We seem to have endless nights of NW either way. He is a great daytime napper. Nothing is really making sense right now. After last night, my brain is mush and I'm not convinced I have had anything right for the past several months! I do know he about to get his first tooth, but all this NW has been happening forever...so I believe most of it is routine related.

Thanks everyone!

Jenny

[becj86]

I mean, just carrying her from one room to the next her legs are kicking, arms flapping.

L did this when he wanted to be put down, stay where he had been or go somewhere other than where he was being taken.

She's happy one minutes, agitated or frustrated the next.

Pretty normal at this age (though more extreme with spirited LO's) - the frustration of having their brain at this stage of development but not being able to communicate what they're thinking and not being able to move around as they want to is really tough for them. Have you tried signing some of the key things she might want to communicate? DH used to ask L where he wanted to go and he'd lean that way and DH would walk that way, kind of like being DS' legs when he was frustrated about not walking.

It seems like maybe my baby needs a full A time before bed, but I'm still trying to figure that one out. The short PM nap at the end of the day seems to lend to OT by bedtime, but I can't get my baby to down easily without a longer A time. We seem to have endless nights of NW either way. He is a great daytime napper.

Is the A time before bed really packed with activity? Overstimulation can be a massive issue with bedtime and some babies around this age get overstimulated just having a bath...

Jenn, with L he was super active and high A time but also average-high sleep needs - just needed each in bigger chunks. So he would do 4hr A in the morning (heavy duty activity like swimming, crawling/walking around the park/shopping centre - not busy here ), 2hr nap, 3ish in the middle A, 45min CN and 1.5-2hr to bed and then sleep like a champ at night. Everything in my day was geared towards having him in as many stimulating places with open spaces as possible, so he could interact or not as he chose and he did much better being able to take himself out of the equation than if I was trying to read when he needed to have a break.

[jennfullwood]

The A before his bedtime is consistently the same every night and I don't think it is too stimulating. We rarely are out and about in the afternoon/evening. For the first two hours, he is crawling around in living room playing on his play mat with his toys. The last hour or so is when Dad gets home from work and gives him his bath, gets him ready for bed, reads to him, cuddles and bottle. He does love seeing his dad so he gets excited and happy when he comes home. They play a bit, but I don't think it's keeping him from going to sleep well, and dad keeps it very low key before bed. I am usually always the one to come in and actually put him to bed, but that is just so I can observe how easily/or not he goes down. But he does not mind if Dad puts him down to sleep. And he has no problem falling asleep if he has had a full A time. He just lays down without a peep and goes to sleep. He just has to be tired enough, at least that is how I am interpreting it. It is the exact same way with his daytime naps too....if he's tired enough, no fight whatsoever and no crying. He takes great naps. When he moved to 3 h 30 m A time, the naps didn't fit so well anymore and we started having to do a short nap in the PM. I feel maybe that is throwing us off as I'm just not sure when he is ready to go down. The timing is hard. He fights if it's too early. So far, I think he goes down okay about 3 hours after a one hour PM nap. We are full of NW's though which seem to always coincide with him needing an A increase. We have struggled with a consistent 5 or 6 am early waking since he was about 12 weeks old. I used to feed at that waking. We also have very frequent NW's, often they happen all night long and I'm not sure if it's UT or OT or both. They seems to always get better with A time increases, so I lean towards UT, but they just do not really make sense. I do not know where our problem lies right now. Katherine on the main EASY board has started working with me to try to work towards figuring this out.

[Kirsten~]

Hi Jenn, our LOs are right around the same age, and both spirited, so I can relate! We had the SAME issue with BT where she was clearly UT. We figured it out because she would scream in her bedroom, but as soon as we brought her out of her room she calmed down. DH took her downstairs and let her have some quiet time for a bit, and about 20 mins later, she'd get fussy, we took her upstairs, and she was out for the night. So I knew her BT was too early on the days when she took the CN too late. It seems like with my DD, it does not seem to matter if she takes a 2hr nap or a 30 min nap, she still needs to same A time. So I did spend some time this weekend trying to move her naps around by bumping up her A time in the morning. Below is what our weekend looked like, and after weeks of 30-45 min naps, we are seeing some real improvement with a bump in A time.

WU-7
1st nap: 11-1
2nd nap: 4:15-5
BT: 8

My problem is, I'd like her BT to be 7:30 because I have to get her up around 6:30-7 before I leave for work on weekdays, but I just haven't figured out a better routine yet. Same as you're seeing though, my DD fights like crazy if she is UT. I actually shoot to have her be a little OT to err on the side of caution. If she is just a little OT, then she generally goes down no problem and sleeps pretty good.
Lots of NWs is so tough and frustrating. You mentioned that he is a good napper. Do you think he's getting too much daytime sleep? Since he's spirited maybe he needs more time to burn off energy during the day? Good luck!

[jennfullwood]

Kirsten,

Thank you so much for replying! I am so glad and relieved to hear someone with a spirited baby who has the same issue with A time. I have been searching these boards for two weeks trying to find someone who had this issue. I find also, that even with a short nap in the afternoon, mine still needs almost a full A time following to go down at bedtime without fighting. And he is exactly the same, he will scream and stand up in his crib and bounce if he is not tired enough, and as soon as I turn the light back on, he will calm down. In fact, I had this issue tonight. My baby woke all night last night, so I was concerned about OT today, and he only napped one hour this morning. When I put him down for afternoon nap, he slept for 2 hours and then I actually woke him at 4, which was two hours, so he could have time to get sleepy before bed. I planned on putting him to bed at 7:30, which would be our 3.5 hour A time, but he just wasn't even acting tired in the least. I tried but he screamed. It ended up being 8:10pm before I could get him to settle. I had to try about 3 times before he was ready. That was just over a 4 hour A time. So now I know never to allow that long of a nap of an afternoon. Normally I would never do that, but I was trying to catch him up on sleep from what I thought was a night if NW because of OT. Many times my gut says it is UT, but all you really hear so much of the time is NW being due to OT. I think I have perpetuated the problem many times being convinced it had to be OT when really it is UT. It's hard for people to believe sometimes that his A time is so high I think...

So your baby will go down for his second nap with only a 3 hour A time after a two hour nap in the morning? And then he goes down ok with 3 hours after a 45 min nap. I guess you could cap your morning nap at 1.5 hours and then 45 in the afternoon, which would put you at 7:30, but that may not be enough day sleep for your baby.

Yes, I have wondered if mine was getting too much day sleep. We just recently bumped up to the 3 H 30 min when he started NW again and that put him at about 2.5-3 hours of day sleep, so I don't think that is too much.

We have been trying this EASY:

W - 7
S - 10:30-12:00 ( Iwould try for 2 hour nap here, but he started waking at 40 min UT)
A- 12- 3:30
S - 3:30-4:30 (capped this nap)
B - 8

NW's improved greatly for a few days and then he started NW again. I tried putting to bed a couple of times at 7:30, he fought me like he was UT, and he was up all night on those nights. So I am almost positive he still needs the longer A time to bed. Many nights, the waking is just excessive...like every hour or more. And I just don't understand how even OT or UT could cause that excessive waking. Sometimes he is crying out of frustration, but acting like he is not very tired, so I think UT. He gets so frustrated if I'm trying to make him sleep and he is not tired, hence the crying I think. Sometimes he is just very restless. He is teething with his first tooth since last week and it has yet to come in. I can barely feel it. But he has been waking like this long before this tooth coming in and I have been medicating him at night but doesn't help with the waking.

I am just stumped on what to do. I know his NW's drastically improve with the increase in A time. Every time they get better...so I think he is UT. But then I just can't seemed to find a balanced routine to keep him in consistent sleep. He seems extremely sensitive to everything!!!

[becj86]

The last hour or so is when Dad gets home from work and gives him his bath, gets him ready for bed, reads to him, cuddles and bottle.

We struggled - DH was so low key but L shook with excitement (quite literally his whole body would shake) for 2hr+ after DH got home. Great that he's doing the bath, bottle, etc. as that helps, but wondering if you could further help him cope by building some big tight hugs into the bit of BT routine that you do? Just to help dispel the energy from his body...

Many times my gut says it is UT, but all you really hear so much of the time is NW being due to OT. I think I have perpetuated the problem many times being convinced it had to be OT when really it is UT. It's hard for people to believe sometimes that his A time is so high I think...

UT is often misjudged I too found that it was easier to err on the side of OT at this age. The OT wakings at night tend to be early in the night, within the first few hours of falling asleep for the night or an OT EW is consistently 9.5hr-10hr after going to sleep for the night. I found if DS was OT, he was less coordinated than usual so if my gut said he was UT, it was best to go with that Keep in mind these little spirited babies really do break a lot of the rules.

If he is UT and therefore not taking restorative naps, he can become OT by the end of the day.

[Jessleigh]

Keep in mind these little spirited babies really do break a lot of the rules.

yes they do! I often feel as you do, Jenny, that i have no idea if she was UT or OT and im constantly second guessing myself these days and feel like i just don't know what my DD needs. No fun. Hoping to get it sorted soon. Good luck to you guys!

Also, would you guys say a 40min is UT? For some reason i thought it was OT for us, but now I'm wondering. I also get 35min naps which i thought was OT but I'm also wondering if UT. It's so hard bc a simple 5min difference could actually be a HUGE difference! I never get the standard 30 or 45. It's usually 35 or 40. Maybe they're both UT? makes my head spin. ...sigh...

[becj86]

Anything over 30 was UT/OS for us, OT was usually 20-25min - woke crying and would resettle reasonably easily most of the time. 35-40min I'd say in your case could well be UT/OS or both - the idea is that its the length of the sleep cycle and LO just isn't tired enough to stay asleep through the transition into the next sleep cycle or is too wired from the OS. The OT waking is before a full sleep cycle has happened