Sleep and EASY Support for spirited babies

[becj86]

PUPD is often too stimulating for a spirited baby. The thing with PUPD is that you have to have the right routine first and you have to have tried something else for at least a week before you go to PUPD because it is a last resort sleep training method.  Here's how to do it properly: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0

At this age, DS had a sleep window of about 2 mins - too early and he wouldn't settle due to UT and too late and he'd not settle due to OT, so its really important to get that routine spot on and pay as much attention as you can to cues.

He seems to know when I want to get him to nap, and he doesn't like it.

This is really typical of spirited LO's. You could try making his room a happy secure place for play and for sleep. I had DS play in his cot during his A time to get him familiar with his surroundings and create pleasant associations. A lot of spirited babies only sleep in the dark. DS sleeps in broad daylight during the day, so you don't necessarily have to darken his room for naps. Spiriteds also often have trouble with transitions, including from play to sleep so bringing something from A time with him to the cot may help - DS was a little older when I did that but I just picked him up with his toy and put him in bed and he would play til he was ready to sleep, then sleep or cry out for me to lie him down and help him off to sleep.

[becj86]

Have you read this: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0
Do you think that may help?

I know a lot of spirited LO's do better with gradual withdrawal rather than PUPD.

[SukieCat]

Bec - thanks for the suggestion of gentle removal!  I hadn't read about that method before.  I was dreading doing PUPD with DS because I know he'll get really worked up and probably scream the whole time.  Gentle removal seems like a better place to start.  So as I understand it, I'll do our normal naptime routine, including nursing him, but when he starts to get drowsy, that's when I'll put him in his crib (as opposed to waiting until he's deeply asleep while nursing)?  What do I do if (when) he starts crying?  Repeat the process? 

The funny thing with DS is that I know he CAN self-soothe... at night time.  For example, he got up at 3:30am to feed (we don't do a DF), and when we were done I put him back in his crib drowsy but kind of awake and I left.  I heard him babble a bit on the monitor, but then he went to sleep.  I think it's because it's so dark in his room at night.  We don't even have a nightlight in there.  I think he gets distracted during the day and he doesn't want to shut his eyes and miss any of the action.  I'm not sure how to transfer our night time success to nap time success.  I'm super thankful that he sleeps well at night - at least we have that going for us!

[becj86]

Is part of the issue with dropping the feeding before naps that you aren't sure he's eating enough? It often is...
In which case, I suggest feeding at wakeup and again 45min-1hr later. That way you know he's not hungry at naptime and he only has to go 3hr between feeds to get to WU from his nap.

DS was much better at night sleep than self-settling for naps for a long time too. I'll have more of a think about what else we did.

[SukieCat]

I would say that we got into this pattern of frequent nursing because there was concern that he wasn't gaining enough weight.  So from early on, basically every time he fussed, I'd feed him.  That got us into this habit of nursing to sleep, and now it's the only way he'll sleep.  So yes, I'm concerned about putting him on a 4-hour easy because of the time between feedings and his lackluster weight gain.  However I also realize that in our current "snacking" pattern, he probably isn't getting enough hindmilk, which is probably contributing to his weight problem.  I think he could go 3 hours between feeds, but I still have no way to get him to settle for naps without nursing him.  Does that make sense?  So I need to figure out a way to help him self-soothe for naps, and it'll probably involve weaning him off of his nursing to sleep habit, or I guess cutting him off cold-turkey.  Either way I think he'll have a hard time with it.

[becj86]

BTDT re: weight gain concerns and feeding frequently. DS actually had terrible gas when I fed him that frequently though and I was constantly told I had an undersupply even though I was plainly still engorged almost all the time. I happened upon info re: oversupply and that was my answer. DS actually went really quickly to being quite happy with feeds 4hr apart and that was at 3 months (and went from gaining 20-30grams per week when fed frequently to 200g per week when fed 3hrly, then 400-500grams per week when fed 4hrly), so its possible - just not likely as most EBF babies don't make it to 4hr between milk feeds til after solid is established.

What happens if you give him the opportunity to sleep but don't try to make him? By that I mean go for a walk with him in the carrier/pram just before nap time or go for a drive in the car and let him fall asleep on his own terms.

[SukieCat]

I think it's more likely that I have an undersupply issue rather than oversupply, since I'm only engorged first thing in the morning.  We've had nursing issues from the get-go.  DS was jaundiced when he was newborn and we had to strip him down and wipe him with a cold, wet washcloth to keep him awake while nursing, and he'd still fall asleep.  I'm not sure he ever really learned how to take a full feed b/c he'd fall asleep first.  Maybe if we stretched out feedings, then he'd be hungrier and eat more?  We've started supplementing with some formula, which I know could hurt my supply further, but I want to make sure he's getting enough to eat.

We used to be able to get him to sleep other ways though, through rocking and shushing.  Now he'll only fall asleep nursing, and even when he does fall asleep and we manage to transfer him to the crib, he frequently wakes up after only a couple of minutes.  He doesn't even sleep well after a bottle of formula, when I know he is full.  We've tried putting him in all kinds of contraptions when he is sleepy, and he doesn't fall asleep in any of them - swing, carseat, stroller, glider, baby bjorn.  We tell everyone that we have the one odd baby that won't sleep in the car.  He also won't take a pacifier - I've tried loads of different types.  I think he'd really be soothed by one but he just prefers mommy.   

[becj86]

Maybe if we stretched out feedings, then he'd be hungrier and eat more?

That's the idea.

I've read a couple of your threads and whilst you've got these reflux issues, you may be best off feeding to sleep (AESY) until you can get the pain under control.

DS used to fall asleep feeding too. The midwife who brought him to me to feed showed me how to stimulate his reflexes so he'd keep sucking til he took a full feed even if he was asleep. So I'd latch him and when he stopped sucking productively, I'd count to 20 then rub his cheek/jaw and if he started sucking productively again, let him keep feeding. If he continued comfort sucking after rubbing his cheek, he was done and I would take him off and just cuddle him.

I think a lot of your sleeping troubles are related to the reflux, so I'll leave you in the capable hands of the ladies on the CRC board with respect to that.

[SukieCat]

We've started him on reflux meds and we'll see how he is in a week.  Thanks for all of your helpful replies!  I'll probably be back when we try again... 

[becj86]

That's great. I hope it helps him

Always here to help out, we mothers of spirited ones must stick together

[Lindsay27]

Hi Ladies - I was just reading through this thread and...oh my you have all described my LO, he is a 4 month old spirited (through and through!) little monkey!!

I have quite literally hit a breaking point with our EASY routine and I am just at a loss at what to do any more.  We have always (ALWAYS!) had short naps and still do to this day, thus DS is constantly OT.  And when he is OT, wowzers...hyper does not even begin to describe it.  If I put him in his chair he kicks violently and gets so excited (not necessarily a "good" excited) and lately he's discovered yelling...not crying, literally yelling/screaming.  After 4pm it just takes everything in us to keep him at bay from having a complete meltdown.

There is no such thing as "relax" time with him, he is virtually never still, his limbs are going nuts about 90% of the day.  I am trying to wean the swaddle because he has started rolling over and also sucking on the swaddle blanket and leaving it over his face, but good lord...how do you tame those limbs!?

I need help from other Mama's with spirited LOs because I am going completely mad.  He has no "shut down" mode, the more tired he gets, the more hyper he gets, and the harder it is to settle him.  This whole non-napping business is just a recipe for disaster with a spirited one.  This sounds horrible, but I just don't have the patience for it any more, I really don't.  I am so exhausted!

So, and advice would help - with naps, games to play during A time, ways to settle...anything!  I'm about to go off the deep end!

[SukieCat]

Lindsay - Unfortunately I don't have any advice for you but I just wanted to say that I totally feel your pain!  I am in the exact same boat and I'm about to lose it over here.  My DS sounds a lot like yours, and we are having a hell of a time with naps.  I've never been able to settle him in any way other than nursing.  Hopefully some other Mamas have some advice!

[Lindsay27]

At this point I don't even think it's important to be focusing on a routine any more, my goal is to simply get as much daytime sleep into him as possible, and try not to lose my mind doing so!  I have no issues with APOP at this point, but I am finding that even that isn't working!

On the odd day he has a glorious 2 hour nap, he is sooooo happy!!  I just want to see him like that all the time.  The poor guy is just an OT mess every single day, and thus his mother is a mess too, and then no one is happy!

I also just want to say...please remember to take care of your self!  I've been so stressed over this that I haven't been sleeping at all over the last month, so I think my lack of sleep is really compounding the problem because I am just sooo exhausted and MOODY (poor, poor DH!).  I had a visit with my doc today and she prescribed a medication to help with my sleeping, so I hope that if I am not so tired, I can properly help DS not be so tired too

[roimata9]

Lindsay, your LO sounds so similar to how mine was! I remember how exhausting it was, and how hard to stay positive when I'd go out and there'd be all these babies who were so much calmer than mine, and if they got tired, they'd just fall asleep in their mother's arms.... But you know, at 16 months now, he is super happy and confident, way more so than those same babies who now cower on their mum's knees when we're out!

I managed to get Lachie to a stage where he would do 3 good 2 hour naps a day, so it is possible! LOs are all different, but here is what worked for us:

We APOPed like anything to get his body into the habit of sleeping, then once that happened we worked on removing the APs. He slept in a hammock which was in our office as I worked from home. I would bounce him in the hammock to sleep, then at the slightest stir would bounce again to resettle. This worked really well as long as I got the timing right.

Double swaddling - we used 2 light muslin swaddles (so it wouldn't matter if they went over his face) the underneath one we'd do an Aussie swaddle and then a normal wrap on top. That kept him pinned in nicely, and the Aussie swaddle give them access to their hands to suck through the wrap.

Reducing stimulation, he was really sensitive to new things and sudden noises, so I kept the house really quiet, no radio or TV. I have a thing about toys, so he only had (and still has) a few toys. He would get really OS when we went out, so I would always wear him when we were out, and for about 1.5 months when he was really bad, we didn't go visiting. If people asked me out, I explained he was going through a sensitive patch and was a lot more comfortable in his own space, so could they come and visit instead. He loved our front pack, so I wore him around the house a lot, that seemed to calm him down when nothing else would. He also would go crazy if he was sitting up somewhere that wasn't snuggling with me or DH, so I just left him on the floor instead. I guess they can't see as much that way, maybe?

BT/nap routine that was the same each time so he knew what was coming

Not clock watching, but just whipping him into bed at the first yawn or eye rub. I actually was putting him to bed too early, because of his OS he'd melt down and I'd assume he was tired. Actually he wasn't, he just couldn't cope with all the stimulation. Keeping things really low key extended his A times which extended his naps too. I don't know what other people think, but I wouldn't worry about games at 4 months. Going for walks in a front pack and being sung to, read to and cuddled is all I tried to do at that age. He had a minimalist play gym that he lay under while I had a shower, but other than that we didn't really do games.

Hope some of those ideas help, hang in there!

[roimata9]

And SukieCat, don't discount oversupply just if you aren't often engorged. I was only ever engorged the odd morning, but had definite oversupply - I'm, erhem, rather well endowed and i just think you can hide a lot of milk in these puppies without anyone realising!