18 month sleep regression support thread - Part 2

[clairebear79]

Glad that is working for you honey.x

[stardust599]

Hmmm, maybe I spoke too soon!  We did have a couple of blips this week so maybe OT creeping in?  Anyway -

Monday -
6.15 WU
PD late at 11.35ish (had been showing tired signs for a good 40mins but didnt get her down on time) so refusal until
Nap 12.15 - 2.30/2.45
6.45 BT as very grumpy and tired

Tues -
5.30 WU (??!  Too early BT on paper but in reality she was exhausted and asking for bed :-S )
CN 1pm - 1.40pm as had midwife in town, stayed in car with her but still cant manage more than 1 sleep cycle!
BT 6.00pm but chattered until after 7pm

Weds
5.30am WU (OT this time!)
11 - 12.30 Nap
6.15pm BT, asleep pretty much instantly?

She has been so tired and grumpy today, rubbing her eyes from 9am, I tried pushing the A ever so slightly hoping she'd nap longer to catch up so we did

6.15ish WU
11.45 PD (asleep by 12)

.. but she woke at 1hr15 and was still tired all afternoon.  Back to bed at 6.15pm.  I'm not sure where to go from here, I think we are getting an OT build up from the CN on Tues then 2 EWs?? :-S Last week was perfect all week :-(  This is where we go wrong - OT starts to creep in, naps get shorter so nights get shorter and then we get complete refusal and EW.

I sometimes feel like no matter what I do and how much sleep I offer she is STILL clearly tired and grumpy and I know she needs more sleep but don't know how to get there.  We pushed that morning A for weeks but she still couldn't get passed 11.00am ish and had the EW and terrible mood and we can't leave the house after this time as she always fall asleep!  I don't think there are any other options for us other than to keep muddling through and putting LO down when she starts to get tired in the mornings.  She won't take a CN in the late afternoon and I don't want to do BT earlier than 6.15ish as it's not fair to expect 12+ hours every night!

[clairebear79]

Hiya hun.

Ah - it does look like the long nap on Monday is what's thrown things - UT at BT leading to shorter night, then obviously the v short car CN has thrown things right out.  I'm sure in a couple of days she will catch back up though hun.  Its sooo difficult at this age hun b/c when it all goes wonky the temptation is there to allow long &/or early catch up naps & early bedtimes, but IME they don't work like they did when DS was younger.  Now, I can try putting him down early thinking he is OT & he takes an age to fall asleep.  Is he really OT as he appears, or is it UT underneath it all?  IDK.  Its such a tricky age. 

One thing that crossed my mind when I read your post earlier is that you may get EW because you have shortened up her morning A time.  Before the 18 month blip she had a lovely routine with a 5.5hrs A time in the AM didn't she? So to my mind, if her sleep needs are changing, she may actually need a longer A time in the morning rather than a shorter one, otherwise you are kinda going backwards IYSWIM?  I see why you have done it - so she shortens the nap naturally rather than you having to wake her, but IME too short a morning A time just leads to EW.  And of course if she is going down for her nap UT & only sleeping 1.5hrs, then she may end up OT by the end of the day.  Not saying that's what's happening for sure, its just a possibility.   Often, when naps get shorter, LO's need a shorter A time to BT.  So you are always better having a longer morning, shorter nap then short A to BT.

TBH I would still advocate gently stretching her morning A time, at the very least back to 5.5hrs.  And allow absolutely no more than 2hrs nap. Then I think you need to stretch her afternoon as 4hrs A is just too short.  I think that by doing both of these things, you will get out of the UT/OT loop she's been in & get her back on track.  What do you think?

[*Kara*]

Excellent update stardust!  Sometimes it's the best thing to just find that natural sleep pattern and go with it!

[stardust599]

Hiya hun.

Ah - it does look like the long nap on Monday is what's thrown things - UT at BT leading to shorter night, then obviously the v short car CN has thrown things right out.  I'm sure in a couple of days she will catch back up though hun.  Its sooo difficult at this age hun b/c when it all goes wonky the temptation is there to allow long &/or early catch up naps & early bedtimes, but IME they don't work like they did when DS was younger.  Now, I can try putting him down early thinking he is OT & he takes an age to fall asleep.  Is he really OT as he appears, or is it UT underneath it all?  IDK.  Its such a tricky age.  

One thing that crossed my mind when I read your post earlier is that you may get EW because you have shortened up her morning A time.  Before the 18 month blip she had a lovely routine with a 5.5hrs A time in the AM didn't she? So to my mind, if her sleep needs are changing, she may actually need a longer A time in the morning rather than a shorter one, otherwise you are kinda going backwards IYSWIM?  I see why you have done it - so she shortens the nap naturally rather than you having to wake her, but IME too short a morning A time just leads to EW.  And of course if she is going down for her nap UT & only sleeping 1.5hrs, then she may end up OT by the end of the day.  Not saying that's what's happening for sure, its just a possibility.   Often, when naps get shorter, LO's need a shorter A time to BT.  So you are always better having a longer morning, shorter nap then short A to BT.

TBH I would still advocate gently stretching her morning A time, at the very least back to 5.5hrs.  And allow absolutely no more than 2hrs nap. Then I think you need to stretch her afternoon as 4hrs A is just too short.  I think that by doing both of these things, you will get out of the UT/OT loop she's been in & get her back on track.  What do you think?

I think it started with the long nap on Monday too.  But she was pretty tired in the morning as usual (she is tired by 10-11am every morning but usually very happy and awake all afternoon).  But the long nap only happened because I had pushed the morning A a little so we got refusal from OT then she took the long catch up nap.  I can't cap because she is literally horrendous.  She screams and hides her face in me, covers her ears and will refuse to eat or go down or to OH and just sobs and rubs her eyes and hides cuddled into me, this will go on for 4hours+ until I put her to bed which is a huge fight and then she does an extreme EW of 4.45am after a capped nap :-(

She was 5hours A before the 18month regression.  She did a lovely 7am WU, 12pm - 2.15/3pm nap and 7pm BT, how I miss those days!

I think I could push the morning A out to 5.5 but because we get nap refusal from being out 1-2 times a week (try for naps in car or in my arms but never get more than 45mins) then she gets OT and EWs so I never get the chance to push the A!  I don't live near town so if I have to travel to town it means we either can't get back on time for nap or she falls asleep in the car.   She used to just take a CN then go to bed at 6pm and sleep an extra hour but now when I put her to bed on a CN day she refuses to sleep for 1.5hours and EWs! So for now I am taking to arranging my life around nap time until things settle down, I have had to stop all our groups and soft play etc. we used to do every morning as she just falls asleep on the way back and then is terrible all day and night!  And theres not much on in the afternoons to keep us busy.

ETA - super night, 6.15pm BT, 10minute waking around 5.35am then back to sleep until 6.50am! In a good mood and doesnt appear tired at all so now just got to watch and see what time those tired signs appear. Going to order a gro clock too as think she is ready for it to be useful x

[clairebear79]

Hiya hun only just seen this.  That was actually a really great night considering how short her nap was hun.  How have things been the last couple of days?

[stardust599]

Things are fantastic.

We now have 6.30-6.45 WU, 11.30 nap for 1.5hrs ish and 6.30BT. She seems pretty tired from 10.30ish but we push her a little and PD just before she hits the naughty and difficult stage. Afternoons are fantastic, she wakes so happy and rested and has no signs of tiredness or grumpiness until 6pm ish. She is averaging 12 hrs at night and 1.5 during the day which is 13.5hrs so just about right?

How is O now?

Xx

[clairebear79]

Spot on.  That's great news! 

I wish I could say same for O.  He is doing 10.5-11hrs at night no matter how short his nap.  We've been capping at 1hr which gives 11hrs at night but he is so, so tired.  So yesterday I let him wake naturally from nap (1.5hrs) & he only did 10.5hrs overnight.  Crabby as hell today.  So I let him have 1h 45 today (woke naturally) & I'm sure it'll only backfire with an even shorter night tonight but that's life with a touchy chronic EWer isn't it eh?!  We always seem to have a nice month & then it reverts back to the same old mess as always.  I can't seem to get him down UT like you can with your LO, he just screeches & cries that he's not ready & then shouts & chats for ages, so doing an early nap just isn't an option for us.  And anything less than 6hrs A in the AM now causes EW.

[stardust599]

Same here, we have a nice 3/4 weeks then a couple of months of hell!  LO is actually having a very restless night, lots of mumbling and chatting in her sleep and a few ENW so far.  We haven't left the house all day though because of the rain/flooding so she was wound up and bored all day which is never going to help sleep.  I hope it isn't because of stretching her the past 2 mornings, she still seems to want that morning sleep but I wanted her to last just a little longer so we could do something in the morning and still have time to get home on time for nap.

I am actually finding that although the shorter A/morning nap used to influence the EW it doesn't now because she no longer takes the big huge 3 hour morning naps so can't use it to catch up on lost night sleep.

It took LO 3/4days to get used to the drop in A time in the morning and took 45mins+ the first few days to fall asleep but I'd had enough of the grumpiness and tiredness in the morning and decided that if she was tired she was going to bed and it was completely non-optional.  Now she takes around 10mins to fall asleep at nap, maybe 15-20mins at BT.  I don't do a wind-down anymore as I find that it just riles her up more than anything as she doesn't want to nap so protests.  So when I see those tired signs (rubbing her hair, touching her ears, tiny little yawns) she gets her nappy changed, sleeping bag on and straight to bed where she winds herself down before sleep.  I find that when I see eye-rubbing etc. it a sign she's overtired and she's more difficult to settle.  If I miss the sleep window I have to wait for the tired signs to come back and accept that she is a little OT and will take longer to settle and adjust the rest of the day to suit.

Also, I am finding that LO is far too spirited now to cope with stimulation or visitors before a sleep.  So I am really firm and visitors get asked to leave 30mins before I think LO will be tired and at 5pm visitors have to go too (didn't go down too well with the inlaws last night eek) otherwise it really affects her sleep.  If she has had a busy day she needs a lot of time to unwind so we shut off the TV and close the curtains and tidy the toys away and just keep a few blocks or books out for an hour before bedtime.  It definately seems to have helped.

No other advice I'm afraid, I hope it passes soon for you too.

[stardust599]

Arghhh restless OT wakings and 4.45am EW!  Very grumpy and unhappy LO this morning. Just goes to show that I can't push that morning A yet without triggering OT :-(  I can't believe keeping her up later in the morning causes an EW the next day but then again LO has always been unique with her sleep.  So early nap and early bed today for us and hopefully a better sleep tonight.

[trimbler]

Hello again! Sounds like you both need (((hugs))) - I can completely relate to that experience of getting a few good days/nights and then a few months of chaos   Claire - as always, your wise words completely tally with our experience... so when you relate your current struggles I just know this will be us before too long! M won't go down UT any more either - although interestingly, he will sometimes go straight to sleep when OT, only to have ENWs and/or EWs. Did you try a 1.25h nap for very long? Or did you find the nights were still too short? I wonder whether he's good with a 1h nap most of the time and just needs a 1.25h nap to catch up occasionally, rather than jumping to 1.5h?? Or will he do a slightly EBT after a few days of 1h naps if he needs to catch up a bit?

Stardust - good on you for being able to be so firm with visitors! I've never managed that, and it certainly affects M too. It's so hard feeling tied to home for naps, isn't it? But I'm sure this really is just a passing phase - she will eventually be able to stay up for longer in the morning and you'll be free again. Are you able to go out even earlier, or are things just not running at that time? Even just to a park or something, just to get out for a bit? Of course when the weather's better - how is it now? The big theme running through the 18mo regression seems to be a big decrease in sleep needs overall, but working out how to manage that doesn't seem so straightforward, and I guess all LOs will handle it a bit differently. As you say, it seems that everything has to be 'perfect' otherwise her sleep goes all wonky and takes a while to get back again - but from your previous posts, forgive me if I'm wrong, it also seems that she does get back into a nice routine again after a few days... so there's always hope Also are you absolutely sure it's all routine-related? I mean it sounds like she was doing fine for a few days before flipping? Could she be teething or anything like that? Canines have played havoc with M's sleep - and only two have actually cut so far!

As for us, I think we're here at the moment:

7am Up (sometimes I wake him, sometimes he wakes a little earlier)
1-2:30pm Nap (goes down easily, sometimes I wake him, sometimes he wakes)
8pm BT (only just pushed back from 7:45pm but he was beginning to seem UT at BT and taking longer to get to sleep)

However we did have a wedding to travel to over the weekend which meant I had to wake him at 6:30am to leave at 7am, encourage him to have an extra early lunch and nap in the car around 11:30 (!!) and he woke when we arrived at 12:50 for a 1:30pm wedding (well with such a long journey I had to leave plenty of time!). I'd been really worried about this as we don't have a car (hired one) so he's not used to sleeping in one, but I think the air conditioning which I'd cranked up high to keep me awake (!) actually helped him to zone out But of course it was a huge change in routine for him, but he coped incredibly well for one who normally goes crazy (hyper) with any change. We did leave early (before dessert ) because I knew he'd be really tired and didn't want him to completely flip and not sleep, especially since we were all sharing a hotel room. It was still just after 8pm by the time we said night night (and took the monitor to a nearby sofa to wait!) and it did take him a good 20-30mins to settle, but I was still impressed, I thought he'd be much worse. Anyway, he was obviously pretty tired after that, and with a shorter nap in the car the next day (tried to keep the routine as normal as possible), everything did go a bit wonky, but he went off to the childminder as usual on the Monday and did really well. I was so surprised as I thought he'd be awful! But then we had the shock of our lives (ok exaggeration!) the next morning as DH had accidentally set his alarm for 7:50am (his work is a 30min cycle away and starts at 8am - oops!) - now this wouldn't usually be a big problem as M would usually wakes a little before 7am, and I'm not good at sleeping in anyway, but amazingly, we were ALL still asleep when it went off!!! So I guess we were all just catching up from the weekend, and then of course we were all thrown off and neither M or I managed to drop off at our usual respective bedtimes! Oh well, I guess that's what happens when we have to make big routine changes, I wonder how long before we're back to some sort of 'normal'...

[clairebear79]

Hi Trimbler.  That routine looks good.  I think when it comes to weddings/celebrations etc & having to go 'off routine' for a day, these LO's can surprise us at what they can actually handle.  We had a christening a couple of weeks ago & we actually had a no-nap day b/c he seemed totally fine at naptime, not tired at all.  he went to bed at 6pm & slept til 7am!!!

As for us, things still a bit iffy.  I am trying to follow his lead this week & see if he can show me the way.  He is waking at 6.30-45, napping around 1.15pm (seems to be when he gets tired) for 1.5-1.75hrs and is asleep around 8pm.  His nights are averaging 10.5hrs, occasionally 10h 45.  Its feeling a bit short, but DS is so so tired when I cap his nap less than 1.5hrs.  I wonder if maybe we need to try something more like your routine, keeping his nap to 1.5hrs max.  I've been so set on not stretching DS past 5hrs A to BT but I think with a longer nap we need more than that in order for him to be tired enough to sleep.

[stardust599]

Sounds like you are doing great trimbler, I always think it is amazing to see how toddlers needs are so different at this age now.  I can look at a baby's routine and pinpoint where the problem is but with toddlers I'm clueless!  Hope you get back to some sort of normal soon!

We are actually back on track but have no routine at all :rofl:

Sunday (EW day)
4.45am WU, on/off to sleep until 6.15ish?
11.30 - 1.30 nap(uncapped)
6.15ish BT

Monday
6.30 WU
11.30 - 12.45 Nap (uncapped)
6.30 BT

Tues
5.30 OT WU but on/off to sleep until 6.30ish?
-out for morning so later nap-
12.00 - 2.00 Nap (uncapped)
6.45pm BT

Weds
6.55am WU
11.30 - 2.00 Nap (uncapped)
7.15 BT

So absolutely no pattern in A times, nap times or night length but she's well rested and settling easy so I can't complain.  The only thing I can see there is that the 2hour+ nap days have then given us a longer night but I won't look into that too much as no doubt next week it'll be different.

[clairebear79]

Well stardust - I think with 12hr nights every night you can't complain can you! 

[stardust599]

No I'm not allowed to complain am I?  Remember last time I complained about 13hour nights and then we ended up with EW again.  I've learnt my lesson and am just enjoying it (or as much as being heavily pregnant will allow me!)

Part of me is hoping that LO is outgrowing her EW.  As when I know I've muddled up and she EWs she tries to get herself back off to sleep or will lay quietly until around 6.30am she starts shouting Daddy!