18 month sleep regression support thread - Part 2

[lily528]

ugh day 3..no naps....enough said...i'm lost and depressed..this has been awful and i can't break the long nights no nap cycle...

[clairebear79]

(((hugs))) Melissa.  Is it really so bad though if she is pulling long nights  What sort of nights is she doing now?  Is she struggling with OT/moody/clingy  If she is happy & well rested I really don't think there is much you can do, she is telling you she doesn't need to nap every day anymore.  A friend IRL with a DD same age is also doing same - she has never imposed a structured 'routine' on her & her dd has always napped whenever she wanted for as long as she wanted.  Some days she has a 2hr sleep, other days she doesn't nap.  Mostly I think she refuses naps at home but will nap in the car/pushchair while out & about.  She is however sleeping 13-14hrs at night, so my friend is just going with it.

Things are ok here atm.  We are doing same as Trimbler:

Up:   7am
Nap: 1-2.30
Bed: 8pm

It seems to be going ok although sometimes he's not quite ready to settle at 1pm.

Ooh one thing I did mean to ask is what time are you trying to put her down for a nap?  Did you try a longer A time?  I think if you attempt to PD after any less than 6hrs, esp after a long night, you are likely to just get refusal.  I know thats what would happen here. x

[lily528]

Not getting THAT long of a night. Last 3 no nap days were 11-12 hr nights maybe less not long enough to cover no nap in my opinion. She sadly seems fine. On occasion a little OT.

[clairebear79]

Hmmm, so 12hrs is ok but less probably not.  Although if she seems fine in herself that is the best indicator of whether she is handling it.  Do you put her down early on no nap days?  I've found with O this has really helped him to sleep for longer.

If you really want to get her napping again I thing you need to do a few things.

1) accept that if she naps she won't sleep more than 11hrs at night
2) wake her in the mornings at 7am to give her enough A time before her nap so she is tired enough to take it (I'd try at 6hrs)
3) wake her after 1.5hrs max, so she is tired enough to go to bed at bedtime, so you don't end up in an UT/OT loop
4) repeat this for at least a week to see what happens.

I know this goes against what you prefer to do i.e. not wake a sleeping baby, but I think its the only way you'll get a consistent napping routine going again.  Its a case of making her be tired enough to nap.  Otherwise you leave her to nap on some days but not on others IYSWIM?

What do you think to that?

[lily528]

I tried doing 7 instead of 8 and she plays for like an hour wondering if she is overtures and I should do even earlier. What do u think?  She's been waking at 8-8:30 except today she woke at 7:40 (fell asleep around 7:40 last night) I let her sleep that late in the a.m. To catch up from the no nap the day before. That's why I'm considering earlier than 7 BT too because maybe if she DOES fall asleep early she's prob going to wake earlier and possibly leave her tired enough to nap?

[clairebear79]

I tried doing 7 instead of 8 and she plays for like an hour wondering if she is overtures and I should do even earlier. What do u think?

What do you mean - you tried doing a 7am wake?  Or a 7pm bedtime?  Not quite sure I understand.  Just with you saying she plays for an hour - when is she playing - at naptime or bedtime?  If at naptime, is this after 6hrs A or with less?

That's why I'm considering earlier than 7 BT too because maybe if she DOES fall asleep early she's prob going to wake earlier and possibly leave her tired enough to nap?

I know with Oliver when he's done no nap, we've put down 11hrs after he woke, so if A was up at 7.40am I'd probably aim for 6.40pm, 7pm latest.  We got a 13hr night with that.  Whether she will sleep less, or sleep more IDK.  Whether she will be tired enough to nap after that IDK.

If you do want to try waking her earlier, I probably wouldn't just suddenly get her up a whole hour earlier, esp after a no nap day as she will likely be tired/grumpy.  IIWM I would wake her 5mins earlier every few days, so that wakeup time gradually shifts earlier.

[lily528]

Sorry I meant I do 7pm BT rather than 8 on no nap days and she plays til 8 most of the time anyway so I thought maybe if I pd earlier there wouldn't be a crib party. I feel so helpless

[lily528]

ETA- I did an early bath at 6 got dressed and bottle ready. She was rubbing her eyes and leaving them closed as we rocked in her chair. I put her in the crib and she immediately cried for me before i stepped away from her crib, as she has been doing lately Everytime she goes down at night AND nap. I reluctantly decided to stay and quietly sing. She closes her eyes snuggled her bunny and within 2 lullabies she was out. So asleep by 6:30 and she needed it. Not trying to create a new habit but I knew if I walked she would have carried on and either kept carrying on or stopped crying and started playing. I just knew she needed to get to sleep having been up for nearly 11 hrs by that point.

So I'm hoping she sleeps well. Maybe 6:30-7:30 and then will be tired enough for a nap but not OT. My gut says she's been in a circle of OT.

[Mama_Mia]

OMG.. I have so had enough of M's antics.. check out my post in toddler sleep.

[lily528]

So she woke at 7:20...almost a 13 hr night!  W/out a single middle of the night OT cry out! so clearly she needed it.  NOW I have to hope and pray we get a nap and back on track...please please. Wonder what time to do a nap though...she was doing 1pm nap before this mess....should I stick with that???



ETA- even though she had such a long night I pd at 1pm for nap based on that's when she always went down and the fact that that long night was merely catch up...anyway long story short she played and played finally after 45 mins i couldn't take it anymore...i went in told her to lay down and go to sleep...i sat on the bench next to her crib and after just 1 SONG..she was out like a light...ok so explain this to me please.  I can't get into this habit but how do i not when she isn't seeming to go to sleep on her own.  when i  let her be she just plays and plays...she was obviously tired or she wouldn't have gone out that quickly plus she was rubbing her eyes and yawning around lunch time...i just don't get it.  I'm thrilled she didn't end up with day 4 if no naps but I don't want to have to sing her to sleep at age 2 you know?!  Any thoughts on what's going on and what I can do?

[clairebear79]

Melissa

Yay for the long night!  What did I say about doing 11hrs after WU on a no nap day!

WRT naptime, I think 1pm nap after a 7.20am WU was still too early, hence why she is just playing.  I'd have done more like 1.30pm.  I honestly think she needs at least 6hrs or you are just going to keep getting this refusal hun.  WRT the singing thing - IDK.  I'd probably say that with all the time playing, by the time you went in she may have been verging on OT, or maybe just about ready to sleep.  So perhaps the timing was just coincidence.  IDK.

How did she nap?  Did you wake her in order to preserve bedtime or did you let her sleep?

Mama_C - will take a look.x

[lily528]

clairebear- I think you may be right...could have possibly been good timing but that being said i really think if I left her alone she'd never have fallen asleep.  so is it possible that if i put her down too early even if she is still in there at a later time she won't fall asleep cause she's already been in there playing all that time?  if that makes sense...meaning say i put down at 1...your saying that on a 7:20 wu time maybe 1:30 pd would have been better..if she is still in her crib at 1:30 she won't fall asleep,.,the trick is to PUT DOWN at 1:30...sorry if you are not following that but I have no idea how else to ask lol 

in any event she woke at 3:10..so today was

7:20 wu (13 hr night)
1:50-3:20 nap (1h 20 min)
8:00 BT (is the norm, but she has been playing at BT the last few nights too since this no nap OT thing started)

that's where I'm a bit lost too...cause a later nap means a later BT right?  and honestly 8pm is late enough around here.  what if i could get her to do something like this?

7-7:30 wu
1:30-3 nap
8 BT

Is that realistic you think?  she often wakes later than that in the morning though but it's worth a shot...I know I can't have it all lol..the later wu's are great though...I just want her napping...I'll take what comes with it if its reasonable enough...because I know she still NEEDS that daytime rest still

[clairebear79]

if that makes sense...meaning say i put down at 1...your saying that on a 7:20 wu time maybe 1:30 pd would have been better..if she is still in her crib at 1:30 she won't fall asleep,.,the trick is to PUT DOWN at 1:30...s

Yes that's it.  I think you need to put down so she will be asleep at 6hrs A time i.e. just 10mins before.  I think if you PD earlier than this its unlikely she'll settle & I know with O if I put him down too early then he goes past the point of being tired & ends up OT.

WRT the nap idea - it may work for her, it may not.  IDK.  Why not give it a try & see how it goes?

I was trying to do something very similar with Oliver recently, but I found that he was still chatting gone 8pm and waking earlier.  And he was definitely overtired by naptime with a 6.5hr A time (though his nights were never 13hrs more like 10.5hrs lol!)  Turns out that with a 1.5hr nap he now needs 5.5hrs A time to BT in order to settle right to sleep.  So I've had to accept a slightly earlier WU & pull his nap back by 15mins in order to fit it all in.  What I'm finding works for him atm is

Up: 7am
Nap: 1-2.30
Bed: 8pm

WRT Ava, if you want that later WU (7.30am) AND a nap, you may find she needs an 8.30pm BT.  But if that is feeling too late for you I'd suggest waking her at 7am so you can do the nap at 1pm, then keep bed at 8pm.  So I would say try the routine you suggested, if she doesn't settle well at bedtime then make the decision to increase her A time to BT, either by pushing BT later or by waking her earlier in the morning so you can fit it all in.

What do you think?

[lily528]

i can handle your schedule as well...but she woke at 7:20 today which is only 20 mins later than your schedule and still wouldn't settle at 1...guess the 13 hr night had something to do with that lol but i just sometimes think when its make up it doesn't count that way..could be wrong though...well we'll do 8pm bt and hope she doesn't play...there have been 2 nights in the last 2 weeks where she played til 9 or later!  crazy

[clairebear79]

Yes I think 13hr night will have meant she wasn't tired enough.  I do think you will need to have her awake at 7am to get her down at 1pm.  On the days she's played til 9pm what has she napped?  It all sounds very UT to me. 

TBH though Oliver is starting to push beyond 6hrs A time now though.  He often takes an extra 10mins to fall asleep for his nap, meaning his BT ends up later because he isn't tired enough when I put him in his cot.  Yesterday went

Up:   7am (11hrs STTN)
Nap: 1.10-2.40
Bed: 8.10   (put down at 7.50)

This morning he started stirring from 6am & would cry out then back to sleep on & off all the way til 7am.  He's gone down at 1pm on the dot today though.  I've a sneaking suspicion we may be about to get hit with earlier waking again, and that his nap will need cutting back more.  I think what I may do though, is continue to put him down for a 1pm nap, but if he doesnt fall asleep until say 1.15pm, I'll still wake him at 2.30pm & that way I ensure he is tired enough to fall asleep at bedtime.  And this gives him the leeway to have a shorter nap on days he's less tired or a longer nap on days he's more tired IYSWIM?