WU at 5-530am??

[Smurfette]

Sam-what time is that 2nd nap starting at? Are you doing a 2pm nap? If so, you might be catching the end of the sleep wave/window and therefore the nap isn't as restorative than one that's starting at 1pm.

Usually when babies wake up crying, that is a good indication that the need more sleep. I would try to leave him there, especially if it's only 30 mins or so, to see if he'll go back to sleep.

If the pm nap is starting at 1pm, then I'd say there is OT creeping in there somewhere and we need to take a look at your whole day and night.

[Samjheywood]

Here is my EASY for the last few days. The second nap tends to start between 1230-1300pm.

UP 0515
S 0811 -0940 (1hr29) Settled easily but still tired on WU
S 1227 - 1315 (48m) Hard to settle. Crying on WU
Tried CN - refused.
BT 1710 Hard to settle.

UP 0550
S 0900 - 1020 (1hr20) Hard to settle. Crying on WU.
S 1259 - 1337 (38m) Settled easily. Crying on WU
BT 1740 Took a long time to settle but no crying.

UP 0550
S 0850 - 1031 (1hr41) Again hard to settle. Still tired on WU.
S 1310 - 1342 (32m) Settled easily. Crying on WU
BT 1740 Took long time to settle but no crying.

If he wakes up not crying i would leave him to see if he falls back asleep. This has only happened once. If he wakes up crying, i tend to go to him as it escalates quickly.

The longest nap he usually does prior to starting set naps was 2hr30 so i think these are the ones i need to be aiming for as he is always happy on WU from these.

I think reading this now OT is definitely creeping in but he is having EBT every night so not sure what else i can do. He is always put in his cot for BT around 3-3.5hrs but takes upto 1hr to settle. He usually doesnt cry just sucks at his lovey until falling asleep!

Thanks 

[Samjheywood]

 BTW - There have been no NW's for the last 4 days so that's an improvement! 

[Smurfette]

Sorry-I'm sure I've asked you this before-but how old is he and how long ago did you drop the cat nap?
Also-were you getting 2 long naps before you went to set naps?
Was he born on time?
Was he colicky in the early months?

[Samjheywood]

No problem -  i know you have loads of people with the same problems as me. 

He is 8mo on 20th July so just over 7.5mo.

The CN was consistently refused at 6.5/7mo. Born 1 week over and he has reflux which we though was colic at first as he did nothing but cry for the 3 months solid! Now on reflux meds and doesn't seem to bother him at all now.

I would usually get one good nap per day but others were short 30/40m ones, on a very good day i got 2 good ones but then on a very bad day i got all short ones. Never any consistency.

[Smurfette]

Quite often with babies with colick (or that much crying for that long of time period) we see that routines take longer to establish, just because you weren't able to start off on the 'right track' so to speak earlier than parent's of 'easy' babies.

But even if that wasn't the case, naps always, always take longer to establish and fix than nights do. Usually nights take 2 weeks and naps take 3-4 weeks.

Your morning nap sounds like it's developed now, but perhaps the afternoon hasn't quite lengthened yet, so I would keep letting him be for a few minutes (if you can) or trying to extend the pm nap until it develops. You may have to bring the pm nap up a touch to 12 30 or 12:15 (that's being asleep on those days, not just winding down) on some days if he looks really tired.

[Samjheywood]

Ok thanks Smurfette. I'll keep at it and see how we go.

Thanks for all your advice, much appreciated. 

[Samjheywood]

Hi Smurfette,
hoping you can offer some further advice as things haven't got any better yet.

In a nutshell I am still trying the set naps and I either get a 1+hr nap then a 30/40m pm one or the other way round EVERY day. That means I have done EBT every day for a few weeks now. The EW is not lengthening still at 5-530am. The last a time before bed is never longer than 4hrs but no matter what he won't have 2 decent naps.

I can tell he is constantly tired but not sure what else to try. My first nap is around 8-830am and second is 1230ish depending on WU. I don't push it to 9 or 1 as he seems too tired. Plus I. Ever get longer than 1hr30 nap.

Any suggestions that could help?

Thanks

[Smurfette]

What time is bedtime? Is he doing a solid night's sleep of 11 or more hours?

If so, then I think you have to push that morning nap out later and stick to it. Do it gradually, but don't start it before 8:15am and slowly keep going. That will move your Pm nap later and then bedtime later.

Also, I would always leave him for the hour if you can in the crib to see if he'll go back to sleep.

How does he wake when he short naps? Crying or happy?

[Samjheywood]

Yes, most night he does a full 12hrs which is a massive improvement but he is a very restless sleeper.

He is waking from the 2nd nap around 130pm so is in bed asleep by 530pm and sleeps a full night through till 5-530am. He sometimes WU in the night but not crying and puts himself back to sleep within the hour. He occasionally WU crying but not very often.

Short nap - always WU crying so clearly needs more sleep. I put him to bed as soon as I see the cues so not sure why he won't sleep longer.

Will try to push out the morning nap though.

Thanks 

[Smurfette]

Wow! Things are going pretty good overall!! 12 hr nights is pretty awesome!

In regards to the short nap-I would really try to listen to him and either try to extend the nap (although this becomes more difficult-though not impossible-the older they get), or to leave him alone if he is just fussing to see if he'll go back to sleep. Often babies will go back to sleep if given the chance. But you know him best and you need to do what makes you comfortable. If he is just fussing and you are comfortable that he doesn't need  you (ie he isn't crying hard), then try leaving him at least until the hour mark and do that consistently for a week to see if there is any improvement.
 Also, is the room pitch black?

On the days that you get a longer PM nap, you can also try to push bedtime out-but be careful to not push too much (ie at his age I would be hesitant to go longer than 4 hours AT) or you'll end up with a  EW due to OT.

So slowly move that morning nap out to at least 8:15 to start with, which will push everything out a bit later (remember it's a process and won't happen overnight as naps can take a while to adjust), try leaving him if he's not hard crying after a short nap or try to extend, and try moving bedtime a bit later when you get a longer PM nap.

HTHs

[BabyLincoln]

I have the exact same issue! I was reading back over the book today and think I am going to try increasing my baby's food intake again by putting in a substantial snack around 4ish, between 3pm breastfeed and 5:30 dinner. Any other advice would be great though!

[Samjheywood]

Thanks Smurfette.

Will try your advice. Had a much better day yesterday managed 2 great naps and a 7pm BT, the first in weeks and our first non EW! He woke at 0630am.

Fingers crossed for more of the same

[jennandsophie]

Yeah Samantha!  Hope it continues on for you like this.

[WillsMommaBear]

Hi, I am new to Baby Whisperer methods, but researched it at the suggestion of a friend. I found this forum and it is exactly my issue. My son is 9mo and generally takes two 1-1.5 hour nap each day, but I was putting him to bed around 7or 7:30pm and he was was waking up between 5 and 5:45am (we got to 6 or 6:30am a few glorious mornings, but that was several weeks ago, now).  I've wondered about the same things you've all mentioned - what to do when A time between the last nap and bedtime is 4-5 hours. I've put my son to bed early the last two nights (asleep by 6:30pm), but could those of you who have gone through this transition (sam, and others), give me a run-down of what you did, how it went, how long it took to see changes, challenges along the way, etc. We're only two nights in and, while he has slept longer at night, he still wakes early (5:20 and 5:30am) and the naps during the day that were generally pretty consistent have been a bit rocky. 
Thanks for posting, everyone - such an encouragement to see people with simliar challenges and not just read about the babies that sleep until 8am on Facebook!