Will W2S work for my 10month old?

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), hon.  That's a really rough day and night.  I think we might need to regroup here and go at this a bit more gradually.  There's a lot going on with the nursing strike and sleep training that's putting stress on both of you.  So, why don't we deal with one issue at a time?

I'm feeling pretty guilty for "starving" the poor girl. 

First of all, I know it's really hard because you are her main source of nutrition still, but try not to feel guilty.  You are offering her to nurse whenever appropriate and she is the one refusing.  This is not something you have control over, you are not starving her.  Have you posted on the BF board at all about the strike?  I think you'd really get a lot of great support there.  I can imagine it's frustrating and a bit emotionally draining for both of you.  I think you're doing right to keep pumping when she refuses and feed her a bottle, she is getting what she needs.

As for the sleep training... since you are giving your pinky, I think it's going to be best to try to get her back on track before pushing her any farther.  She's definitely OT at this point and that's one of the main reasons for all the struggles yesterday.  Go through your winddown, place her in the crib, and give her your pinky.  But, try to keep all the settling in the crib and not your arms.  Hopefully, this will at least have broken the feed to sleep prop and once she's back on track, you can work on getting her to settle on her own in the crib.  Does she have a lovey?  I think this would be a good time to introduce one if not, because once you get to the next stage, that will then be familiar for her and hopefully help her to settle on her own.  If only we can find something else for her to suck, then you should be able to break that habit easily.  It doesn't need to be a pacifier (I wouldn't introduce one at this stage for sure), but is there a special toy or blanket she likes?  My DD has/had a knit bunny that she sometimes would suck on his ear.  My DS has a couple Taggies blankets (http://www.amazon.com/Taggies-9132-Colors-Blanket-Reflections/dp/B0051POK6Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343224947&sr=8-1&keywords=taggies+blankets) that he sucks on along with his thumb.

Should I have started bedtime much earlier?   She woke from nap 2 at 440ish, and I wasn't sure she had a long enough A to bed?   

Should I be shortening A during the day too, if she's only getting 40 min naps?

These are two really big points during sleep training and any time, really.  Yes, bedtime should have been moved much earlier.  She only had 2x40 min naps all day, so the A time to bed does not need to be more than 2-2.5hr (max).  I would have aimed to have her asleep by 7pm after a day like that.  And yes, shorten the A time during the day too.  My DS's morning A time is right around 3.5hr.  He usually does ~1.5hr nap, sometimes less sometimes more.  Every once in awhile because we're out or because it's just an off day, he'll only do 35-40min.  After that, I pull the next A time in to only 2.5hr and he'll usually nap 1hr30min-1hr45min for a pm nap.

As for today, just do your best to get some decent sleep out of her.  I'd go with her normal morning A time after whenever she wakes up and let her nap for as long as she will.  You can then either do an early bedtime or sneak in a little CN (APOPd in the stroller or car) to get her to BT.  And remember that tomorrow is another day! 

More (((hugs))), the crying and sleeping will get better.  It might be a longer road than you thought, but we'll stick with you.

[mom2elise]

Thanks for the quick reply, and support.   It's really appreciated.

She finally woke at 1015, happy to see me, and standing in her crib when I got there.    Thank goodness.   I would have been heartbroken if she was upset.    I did not try to nurse her, as I didn't want to upset her, and I had just pumped at 930.    Gave her the EBM, and she took about 40ml.    But she has been playing happily so far.    Diaper was not really wet, but could see some dark urine... To be expected, given that she hasn't had anything really overnight, I guess.

So, normal A was 3.5-3.75h....so I'll try for a nap around 145. We'll cut our planned excursion to the pool party.   

As for a lovey, she has a bear that we give her just for the crib.   She seems to like him well enough.   She's pretty good at giving hugs to any of her stuffed animals . Her favorite gorilla is too big for a lovey .  She does grab for the bear in the middle of the night, and this morning, as I was watching her on the monitor, she did cry out, roll over and grab for him before settling down again... And that was at 900, so she slept for a good hour or so afterwards.

Few questions in preparation for tonight.   I guess I'll feed her as much as I can, and give her a bottle of EBM right before bath.   Then book and cuddles before settling her in the crib.   I'll let her have pinky if she needs/wants it but not pick her up or try to nurse...not that those were helping anyways!    If (not when...I'm trying to stay positive:) ) she wakes in the middle of the night, I will pinky her back to sleep like I did last night?    Or offer a bottle?    I don't want to replace breast with bottle when NW... I want NW to stop, right?   If its past 500am, is it ok to offer her a bottle in hopes she'll go back to sleep, and is waking out of hunger,   Or do I just let her get up for the day?

I'm trying to anticipate the questions I'll have when I'm dead tired in the middle of the night, and typing in the dark on a little screen

Thanks again for your support.   DH was pleasantly surprised to know that you have all been so helpful and supportive.    He appreciates it too

[mom2elise]

Ok, have I really screwed things up?   I left the pool party early and in te 3 minutes it took to walk home, she seemed really sleepy.   Quickly changed her, and gave her the bottle of EBM in the crib, and she fell asleep with it in her mouth.   Now what ?!?!   

[katie80]

Now what ?!?!  

Just let her sleep, she's obviously tired.  I wouldn't leave the bottle in there with her though. I think one time probably woudn't be so bad, but I know you don't want milk (although it is BM) sitting/dripping onto her teeth for much elapsed time.

As for tonight, I think your plan sounds good. If she's had her normal amount of feeds for the day from the bottle, I would definitely try to settle her without feeding, but then yes, if it's around 4-6am, I'd feed her in the hopes of getting as much night sleep as possible for her. The ultimate goal is for the NW to stop, but while she's in a nursing strike and you're getting your day worked out, I'd still feed her at one.  And she's pretty little right?  So, having a feeding still is totally normal.  Again, I don't know much about strikes, but if you think she's hungry before that point, I'd err on the side of feeding her rather than having her cry for such a long time only to feed her anyway, iykwim.

HTH! And, you're welcome for the support... that's what we're all about.

[*Ali*]

Agreed

[mom2elise]

Thanks!   Full of resolve for tonight.   I did pull the bottle after she fell asleep, and she didn't notice.   Napped from 2-4pm! Woke up happy! 

Praying for a good night.   We have a house guest...a childless bachelor, but he's very understanding.   Warned him that there may be some "noise" at night.

[katie80]

Great nap!! Good luck for tonight!

[mom2elise]

Update for the beginning of the night
Gave her a bottle before bath, and she only had 20ml of EBM.
Bath at 720, book, cuddles etc. and ind crib by 740.    Worried that she would wake from hunger, so gave her the bottle in the crib, lights off, sound machine on, and she sucked back the rest of it(about 80ml) and was still sucking hard on the empty bottle.    Due to timing of wake up and nap, she really only had 2 meals (solids) so I actually took her out of the crib to defrost some frozen breast milk.    Im pretty sure if I left her in the room while I got it, she would start crying.   She drank another 30 ml or so before giving me back the rest of the bottle.  She was laying in the crib at this point.    (8pm)

I moved to a chair farther from her crib, and she rolled around a bit, then pulled to stand, and started fussing louder.   I moved to the stool beside her crib when she bonked her head on the slat(not hard, but still hurt, I think).   I tried my"gentle" voice and told her she was going to bed.   Told her "hugs for Theodore" (her bear) and she knows to reach both arms out to give him a hug...which makes it easier for me to lay her down as she wouldn't let go of the railing otherwise.  Let her have my pinky while she hugged Theodore.   She was asleep enough within 15 minutes for me to remove my pinky, and no hard crying!    she's been asleep for 15 minutes so far, but I am so excited, I just had to record this and post.    I'm going to get DH to read this, so he knows what we've been through

I know it's not ideal that she had my pinky, but am I being realistic to think that eventually, I can just let her have "hugs for Theodore" and no pinky?   

If she wakes in the night, do you think Theodore will be enough to get her back to sleep?

So excited and happy there was no all out crying!

[mom2elise]

Woohoo!   It's morning.  Only heard from her once, at 3am, of course.

It took me a few minutes to get to her as I went downstairs to grab a bottle of EBM "just I case." She was standing in the crib crying by the time I got there.    Wanted nothing to do with Theodore when I tried to lay her down, so I picked her up and cuddled her for a minute or so,then put her back in the crib, even though she was crying.    I showed her the bottle, and she shook her head "no" so i didnt force it on her.  Put Theodore beside her, and got her to eventually take my pinky which calmed her down.   She sucked for 15 minutes on my pinky, then turned away from me, hugged Theodore and fell asleep.    I actually stayed there for 5-10 minutes, because I didn't think she was asleep!

Of course, I stayed up, and pumped until 330, so still a bit tired, but am really (pleasantly) surprised at how the night went, and that she didn't want any milk.


I bolted up at 720, looked at the monitor, and she was sitting in the crib, playing with Theodore.    I took a few minutes to get milk etc before getting her, but I wanted to go in before she cried/called for me.   She was cheery and happy to see me.   

I still want her to nurse again, so we been spending some time in my bedroom casually letting her play with my breasts, and she didn't scream and cry, but did shake her head no.   Then she spotted the bottle of EBM, and reached for it, so I gave it to her.   She only drank 30ml or so, and then wanted to play.    I guess she's really not hungry!

So she woke at 720... so I'll start nap 1 at 1100 or so.

Feeling so happy right now.   I know it's not ideal that she sucks my pinky to sleep, but she doesn't settle well when she's worked up.    I think the gradual withdrawal is the best choice for us .  Will try to pull the pinky earlier over the course of the next few weeks?  Thanks for walking us through this.   

I'm guessing the 3am wakeup is habitual, and we'll tackle that one eventually?

Any suggestions or tweaking you would suggest?

[katie80]

Wow, what a great night!

Sounds like you have a good plan with the gradual withdrawal.  Just know that eventually there may be some crying, because she's so used to going to sleep that way.  I know it doesn't seem like she will ever settle any other way, but rest assured she eventually will.  It will be easier though, if she's not OT when you do that and you're both past the nursing strike. For now, I think it's worth it to keep on with the pinky and GW.

The 3am waking could be habiutual.  I'd see how you go the next week or so keeping her on her routine and if she's still waking at 3 each night, then you can try w2s to see if you can't get her past that.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[mom2elise]

Thanks!   She's asleep for nap 1.   Took her to her room at 1100, cuddled, lay her in the crib with bottle, and she drank maybe 50ml, and pushed it away.   Stood and babbled for a bit.   I gave her her bear, and she didn't want much to do with him.   Eventually, got her to lay back down with the bear and pinky.   She sucked hard for about 10 minutes, and is asleep at 1130!   Let's see when she wakes.     Definitely a happier baby when not OT.    Didn't even fuss too much when our house guest played a bit with her during breakfast.    She doesn't really like "strangers" too close to her.   

Let's see how long this nap lasts!   

[mom2elise]

Hmmm.   she woke at noon, and I could not extend.    Is that OT or UT?

Will try for nap 2 at 300.   In the crib, if its still raining, or might try to stroller her if the rain stops.

[katie80]

My gut says OT, but my gut isn't always right.   Are you usually able to extend?  I'd do a nap more like 2:30 than 3pm, if you get this in time.  She'll definitely be OT by 3pm after a 30min morning nap.

[mom2elise]

Well, took her upstairs at 300, fell asleep with pinky by 325... We'll see!

Thanks!

[mom2elise]

Woke at 400.

OT, I'm assuming.

Super early bedtime?    Like 630?

Should I be reducing morning A too?