Good grief, what can I do?

[RosieMac]

Hi all,

I recently posted on the PUPD board, but now, I think I need some help with my LOs NWs.

My LO is 8 months old in about a week, is EBF and on 3 meals a day of solids (mix of purees and BLW).

I started PUPD sleep training 4 weeks ago, went cold turkey and ditched the pacifier, put him in his cot in a separate room and tried to feed him just once during the night. I had some success after week 1, serious regression in week 2 and 3, and thought we were nearly there at the end of week 3 when he would have 2 lovely naps during the day with little or no trouble, and only 1 or 2 night wakings at midnight and at 4am when he was fed each time, before he slept all the way to 6.45am.

Week 4 has been a complete nightmare.

My DH and I had a huge fight last Saturday night, and my LO woke up 8 times that night. He was put to sleep at 6pm, then woke at 6.25 (shush pat back then straight to sleep), 7.30 (when I did the no no and fed him to sleep at 8.10 after 40 minutes of hysterical crying then straight to sleep), 930 (shush pat back then straight to sleep), 9.45 (shush pat back then straight to sleep), 1000 (shush pat back then straight to sleep), 11.30 (fed again), 3.00am (fed again), 5.00am (shush pat back then straight to sleep) and then 6.45am when he woke for the day.

I realise I shouldn't feed him after a long stretch of crying as it sends the wrong message that he has to cry for ages to be fed, but I did it at the point when shushing and patting, and then PUPD just was NOT working and he was getting really hysterical.  I had to actually take him out of his room, walk him around my bedroom until he settled down and then re-enter his room and try to settle him again. I thought to myself, surely this must just be a blip because he can sense my tension and that I'm upset after the argument, hopefully it will be better tomorrow once DH and I have settled down too!....NOT AT ALL. He's woken up on average about 8-10 times every night since. I've tried to be more disciplined and ensure that he is only fed at midnight and again at about 4am, but last night I caved in at about 1030 after an hour of hysterical crying. He went straight to sleep then until about 2.

He doesn't have a temperature and yes, he may be teething but he didn't make such a fuss the last time his two bottom teeth popped out. And heaven knows if it's a growth spurt. He's not crawling yet, so it can't be a developmental thing...

In the last week I've kept him on the same type of solids that he was eating in week 3 (I took out the acidic tomato based recipes, ditched the lentils which may have been hard to digest and cut out too much dairy) so I don't think it's his solid foods.

He's a bit of a 2.5; 3/3.5; 4 baby. At the moment his routine is:

* 6.30/6.45 wake for the day
* E 6.45 breast fed (both breasts, about 8 minutes each side, give or take a couple of minutes)
* E 7.45 breakfast of baby cereal, fruit and water
* A 6.45-9.15 (includes 15 minutes wind down time)
* S 9.15-10.45

* E 10.45 breast fed (both breasts, about 8 minutes each side, give or take a couple of minutes)
* E 11.45 lunch
* A 10.45-1.45/2.15 (includes 15 minutes wind down time)
* S 1.45/2.15 - 3.15/3.30 (give or take 10 minutes)

* E 3.15/3.30 breast fed (both breasts, about 8 minutes each side, give or take a couple of minutes)
* E 4.15/4.45 dinner
* A 3.15-7.15/8.00 (includes 30 minutes wind down after bath etc)
* E 6.45 top up breast feed (both breasts, about 8 minutes each side, give or take a couple of minutes)
* S 7.15/8.00

I don't do a DF (it never worked for me), and I'm not sure I want to introduce one now as I may then go from 2 night feeds to three (although essentially the 10.30 feed that he got last night was probably one, not that it prevented him waking all the other times!)

Day naps are great (1.5 hours each), and he sleeps through the first 40 minute sleep cycle with no trouble so I don't know why he can't do it at night. I don't mind 1 or 2 NWs with feeds each time (and he displayed these fabulous results in week 3) but with this many night wakings AND feeds now I just don't know what could be wrong. Maybe he fell into a bad habit from that one Saturday night? When the shush pat doesn't work and he starts crying now, it's also a completely different cry - it almost sounds "put on" and is really persistent, despite my efforts to settle him, and only stops when I feed him.

I'm heading back to work in 3 weeks, and while I think I can function now, I will not be able to function at work if he keeps this up.

Should I introduce a dream feed at 10 and then persist in refusing feeds at all the other NWs except perhaps for one at 3 or 4 am? Or should I persist in not feeding until he wakes at midnight/1am (and bear his hours of hysterical crying before then?).

Thanks in advance

Rosie

[katie80]

Hi Rosie, I've been wondering how you've been getting on.  (((Hugs))) for the argument with DH and the rough nights.  Waking frequently like that usually suggests discomfort or OT.  I do believe often the top teeth are a bit more difficult than the bottoms, so it could in fact be teething.  This also came to mind when you mentioined his cry seems different.  If it's more distressed, I wonder if something isn't bothering him. Have you tried offering pain meds to see if that makes a difference?

Otherwise, I wonder if he might be getting just a bit OT from the longer pm A time.  I know we were thinking he was a 2/3/4ish type baby, but the day might just be getting a bit long.  It might be worth a try to pull bedtime back a bit to 7pm and see if that helps.  I noticed the first night it happened you said he went to bed at 6pm.  Did he miss or do a short nap that day?  It might be that he got OT from that night and just hasn't really caught up yet.

In addition to trying those options, I would continue on in settling him without a feed until your specified time.  I don't think there's reason to try a DF at this point, esp if it never worked in the past.

[RosieMac]

Thanks so much for your reply Katie,

His cry last night (at about 9.15pm) turned into sort of a cats cry. I don't think it was distressed...but more  "I can't be bothered to holler anymore so I'll just state my case intermittently anyway!" Then he settled on my chest kangaroo style and slept for 15 minutes before I tried the DF at 10 (sorry, I hadn't seen your post before then so tried the DF as I had just read Anna's epic 27 pages of posts and thought that I might try the same approach because it seemed to work wth her Audrey...and he slept until 1 until his next NW and then slept until 3 when I fed him and again at 530 when he woke for the day).

in terms of pain meds I was only using bonjela at night before he went to bed (in week 3 and week 4) and that hasn't made a difference. Haven't tried Calpol yet because the last time I did he went all hyperactive on me.

I might try to book him into the doctors and check out if it's silent reflux, or if I can give him some teething powder or SOMETHING (the problem here in London is that you just can't waltz into the doctors unless it's an emergency, you have to make an appointment and wait for days!).

I have been pulling back the bedtimes the last 3 or 4 days (more 3-3.5 hours rather than 4) as he's been tired from the bad nights this week and apart from Monday when we went out, I've scaled back the day time activities in the hope I don't OT him, and he is going down at about 7. On the first night it happened, you're right, he went down at 6 because he had a short afternoon nap.

I'll reset the first feed back to midnight/1am and ride out the 9pm/10pm hollering...

Will keep you posted

Rosie xx

[RosieMac]

I managed to squeeze in between appointments to see a doctor. She said that there was nothing wrong with his ears or digestion and no temperature. "It's probably just teething, so just give him some ibuprofen". She looked thoroughly annoyed with me. Probably thinking "not another overanxious first time mummy..." Thanks lady, I just haven't slept very well for the last 8 months, so would really just like a break please!

Anyhoo, have:

* made sure he had a REALLY bland day in the solids department (sweet potato, pear, small amount of chicken)
* administered the Nurofen (he sucked it down in a flash. Oh dear, my son has such a sweet tooth)
* cut the "A" time to bedtime to 3 hours 15 minutes (but then he rolled around for 45 minutes alternating between blowing raspberries, squealing with delight and then mantra crying and trying so hard to get comfortable..so maybe UT as he finally fell asleep bang on the 4 hour mark)
* put him in a sleeping bag rather than relying on the blanket, and
* turned up the fan for white noise

So far he's only woken up once, 2 hours after his bedtime because he was stuck at the bottom of the cot as he was rolling around, and he was back to sleep in under a minute when I hauled him back into the centre of the cot and gave him a quick pat.  Please, please, please let this be a better night.....

Rosie xx

[katie80]

Ugh, sorry about the doctor, how unhelpful!! I wonder how she'd feel if she dealt with those NWs the last few nights. I do agree though, that ibuprofen usually works better than acetaminophen for teething pain. I usually alternate them every few nights when it's really bad, so as not to give too much of one and the ibuprofen nights tend to be better for my kids.

So, the playing around at BT does sound UT. OT can present like that too though, if they get their second wind. How did the day go today? It really sounds like you're doing all the right things. I hope you get a better night!!

[RosieMac]

oh my oh my oh my!

For the first time EVER he slept for 7 hours straight  

* Bed at 6.20pm
* Woke at 8.30pm (he got stuck in the cot)
* Woke at 3.30am for a feed.
* Woke at 4.10am and I just shush patted him back to sleep twice
* Woke for the day at 6.40am!

Now this probably seems like a nightmare for some mums, but given his recent NWs and him having never slept that long unaided, I felt so positive this morning. So it was probably a lovely combination of the meds, the earlier bedtime, the sleeping bag and the white noise.

How long do you administer the meds for? I'm reluctant to do it for too long, but if he's in pain or discomfort from the teething what else can I do? I don't exactly want him to get hooked on it, but I don't want him to be in pain.  Also, do you just administer it at night or also during the day before day naps? I wouldn't have thought during the day was necessary (as he would go down for 1.5 hours no problems without any meds) but from this mornings performance, I'm now not so sure...

The morning nap (which used to be so easy when he was not sleeping so great at night and has been so consistently easy for the last week) was more difficult today. He was the classic 2, 3, 4 hour "A" time yesterday, but I would say the short morning and afternoon activity was probably due to an accumulation of a lot of bad nights. So today I thought, "ok, we can probably make it 2hours 15 or 30 or more in the morning seeing as he had such a great night". At the two hour mark he was fussing...I thought, "no way, surely not?" but took him for the wind down time. At 2 hours 15 I took him into the nursery, he started the mantra cry and wriggling around the cot to get comfy, so I thought, "great, he's on his way". Then the mantra cry turned into a full scale discomfort cry. I took him out of the cot, went through the wind down routine again and put him back down to more screams and discomfort (he is SO not a PD baby when he's worked up). I held him for a bit longer, he mantra cried and fell asleep in my arms (at the 3 hour A mark). His cries were the same as the cries for the last few nights (discomfort cries). It could be that the teeth are breaking through soon and the pain isn't just at night anymore...I'll try to give him some nurofen after lunch and see if the afternoon nap is any easier.

(((((Hugs)))) for all your help so far.

Rosie xx

[RosieMac]

Afternoon nap a nightmare, even with the meds.

What is going on?! The moment the night sleep is ok, then the day sleeps muck up and vice versa. Will there ever be a time when it all works right?? I am being SO sensitive to watching his cues.

He seemed REALLY tired at the 3 hour mark, fuss fuss fuss and whinging. In case it was teething pain, I gave him some Nurofen and commenced wind down, and then he screamed. I tried to settle him with shushing by the cot for 45 minutes then as a last resort PUPD (big mistake) and then had to throw him in the car for a 20 minute cat nap. Now it's nearly 5 o'clock, he's had a total of 1 hour 50 mins sleep for his naps today and I can't fit in another cat nap, and don't want him to go to be too early otherwise I'll have another 4.30am wake up like last time and try to claw back the day.

I don't even want to think about what trying to settle him tonight will be like with him being OT....another series of 10 NWs, waking up 10 minutes after I put him down...All crap. The moment I feel like things are looking up, he does something to throw me..and I didn't really get much sleep last night as my body clock was so ready for him to wake hourly that I did too. Still SO TIRED.

[katie80]

Ah (((hugs))), Rosie. It's so frustrating to have a tough day after a such a good night. If it's that same discomfort cry, I'm guessing the teeth are bugging him. Also, it's normal for them to still be tired and look tired after a good night. It's that whole sleep begets sleep thing... once they get some it's almost like they're more tired the next day because they're not running on adrenaline.

As for meds, I usually try to just use the gels or tablets during the day and more natural things like a cold wash cloth to suck on or some frozen fruit in a mesh food bag unless they're really miserable. Then, I administer meds at BT and in the MOTN if needed. Like I mentioned before, I alternate a few days of ibuprofen with a few days of acetaminophen and have been assured that this is safe. But, I'm not a doctor and can't give medical advice, so it's best to use your own judgement and talk to your doctor if need be on the meds.

I hope your night tonight goes ok!

[RosieMac]

(((hugs))) Katie, thanks

And there I was thinking that sleep feeds sleep

I was using the homeopathic Nelsons teething granules (some of my friends wryly call it "baby coke"!) during the day on Friday, and was more comfortable doing that than dosing him up on Nurofen all day, so  will do that again if he's unsettled.

Night went surprisingly well despite him being OT. Bed time was tough, but I expected that. He finally went to sleep mantra crying and very angry at mummy and the world at about 6.30pm (I had brought bedtime way forward because of the OT and it still took about 45 minutes to settle him down after LOTS of crying). Then he woke up after one sleep cycle, and I expected that too and was there to shush pat him back. What I didn't expect was him to sleep right through to 1.30 am when I fed him which was about 8 hours since his last breast feed (he didn't have any solids for dinner as he was way too tired, so I was expecting him to wake sooner). Then he woke again at 3.30 when I fed him again (1 breast only as I'm trying to phase out that habitual feed ), and then woke for the day at 5.30 (was expecting that too).

He's a bit grumpy this morning, but that is fine. Went down to sleep in a flash for his morning nap after 2.5 hours A time.

If he sleeps well again tonight, I'll know it's not a fluke, and my spirits are way better, so I won't feel so jaded if he throws another wobbly for the afternoon nap

Thanks again Katie, sorry for my rambling.

Rosie xx

[katie80]

Ramble away, hon... hope you got another decent night.

[RosieMac]

Thanks Katie,

Another early night for him because he was OT...and a few more NWs than the night before as he was OT...the vicious OT cycle!! He also woke at about 11pm (6 hours after his last feed) and I'm warily hoping that it was just because he was OT and hungry and not just making his first feed earlier and earlier.  He woke this morning at 5am and was not sleepy enough to go back to sleep after I fed him then. Ouch.

It was his very first (half) day at the childminder and he only had a 1 hour morning nap before I took him there (I wanted more!) and then she didn't put him down at about 11 when he was supposed to go down. I picked him up just after midday (having gone through MY OWN SA) and he was SO WIRED. Sheesh. Is there a board I can post on "how to deal with errant childminders who insist on only giving your child one nap a day?"

He had a 2 hour sleep with me in my bed this afternoon (cue my guilty look, I missed him...) so I'm hoping that will make up for the lack of sleep today and make for an easier night....mmmm.

xx

[katie80]

Is there a board I can post on "how to deal with errant childminders who insist on only giving your child one nap a day?"

LOL, I'm sure if you posted in the Lounge, you'd get some replies and tips from moms who've BTDT. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=8.0 (((Hugs))) for that!  It sounds like your afternoon nap together was a good way to make it up for both of you.  And, hoping indeed that it makes for a better night.

[RosieMac]

Thanks Katie,

Will head to the lounge!!

He's still waking up about 6 times a night but I'll see how the next week goes. There's a lot happening for him at the moment - new childcarer 3 full days a week, away from mummy etc. The OT doesn't help either. He's zonked when he comes home, sleep comes very quickly but he wakes up a couple of hours later at 9, 11, midnight, 2, 3 and then 5....

I only feed him at midnight and then feed him one breast at 3...trying to cut that out, but when you are so tired and don't want to face a screaming match in the middle of the night, it's tough.

xxx

Rosie

[katie80]

Yeah, sounds like he might need to settle into the new aspects of life a little bit before you expect less NW again.  (((Hugs))) Rosie, I know it's exhausting.  You're doing a great job with him.

[RosieMac]

xx thanks Katie