Naps suddenly gone - 7 month old

[ENMS]

If you're pretty sure he's low sleep needs, and not OT at the moment, I would definitely push those A times. Go slowly, 10-15 minutes at a time, and maybe work on one nap at a time.

I think M is average sleep needs (11h at night, 3h during the day average), and he's easily at 3h15 A times these days (although, who am I to say anything, I don't understand anything about his naps lately LOL).

Keep me posted.

[*Kara*]

He doesn't sound UT and LSN to me Jenn... I suspect he is OT right now... an EW is a classic sign...

I think he is likely in an UT/OT loop... the best way out is to push through and get those A times upped and naps at the times you want him to sleep... you could try set naps...

[jennandsophie]

He doesn't sound UT and LSN to me Jenn... I suspect he is OT right now... an EW is a classic sign...

I guess you are right, it just seems I can't ever get a later wake-up and good naps in the same day.  I guess he just uses one to compensate for the other.  Yesterday after the 35 min nap after 3hrs 30 mins A in the morning, he fell asleep in the car for about 10-15 mins around 11am.  He was crazed by 1pm.  So hard to settle him.  He cried for 5 or 10 mins before falling asleep.  I ended up having to wake him after 2hrs 40mins.  I know I let him sleep too much because he woke at 4:10am this morning.  I fed him and DH rocked him back to sleep after I tried letting him go back to sleep on his own and he wouldn't.  Slept until about 6:40am.  I think I will try for 10am AM nap even though he was already rubbing eyes by 9am.

Kara, in terms of set naps, I would really like to do this as we have hired a nanny now and it would be way easier for her to do set naps.  I just don't know how to go about it when the wake-up time is all over the place.

[jennandsophie]

Here's an update on the last few days.  Seem to have gotten naps somewhat back on track.  I've been able to get at least 2 naps over 1hr.  Usually 1hr 15 or 30 mins after about 3hrs 15mins to 3hrs 30 mins.  It's been really hard stretching him to 3hrs 30mins some days.  He's so upset I think he's massively OT but then he has a decent nap to follow so I don't know.  I'm taking it slow.

Anyway, as for nights, we now have a 4-4:30am waking every day we've had these good naps.  I've stuck to a bedtime of around 7pm so he does seem to be more tired at this early waking then when he used to go to bed around 6pm.  I've been feeding him and then he's been willing to go back to sleep until between 6-7am.  This is helping me push the first nap forward to start after 9:15am.  I'm trying to set it at 9:30am but some days he just can't get there because he's too tired and don't want to risk more OT build up.

I can't figure out this 4am waking.  Am I doing the right thing by feeding him so I can start the day later?  In total, he is now sleeping more than 10hrs at night, but less consolidated sleep because he's waking at 4am and then doing another 1 to 1.5hrs afterward.

[ENMS]

Oh Jenn that is good news! So glad about the nice naps and the later wake up!

For the 4AM waking, I'm not one to give advice. M still has a NF, sometimes 2 if we're going through a difficult stretch. Lately he's been following a similar pattern, waking around 4 ish, feeding, then back down until 7-ish.  If he doesn't take a proper feed at BT the NF is even earlier.

Personnally I don't mind the NF because I know he needs it, and I'm way too lazy to do sleep training instead, since anyway when we have failed food trials or reflux flare up, I know I'll have to feed him. Is he taking a full feed? It could be that he needs it. Before he never took a NF? Is he having a good portion of solids these days?

[jessmum46]

Hi Jenn hope you don't mind I've been reading along as your LO sounds so like mine with sleep - if we get a later wake-up we can guarantee rubbish naps and vice-versa.  And we also have the 4am(ish) NF then back down until 6-7am    Interested to know how you get on with setting the first nap time - would you aim to keep it at 9.30am even if LO woke later than usual?  Or are you waking LO up if he sleeps past a certain time to make sure there's enough A time first?

In my mind it was all going to be so easy by this point............

[jennandsophie]

Is he taking a full feed? It could be that he needs it. Before he never took a NF? Is he having a good portion of solids these days?

He does take a full feed.  He always eats anything that is offered to him at any time so very hard to gauge if it's hunger causing the waking.  Considering how much he enjoys eating (despite the reflux) he should be a lot chunkier, LOL.  He is only eating solids at lunch and breakfast still but will start dinner this weekend with veg.  He's only just having a bit of rice cereal along with a good portion of fruit, so not much carbs yet.  No protein yet but will trial chicken in the next few days.  In terms of NFs, he's gone without it before when he was waking 5:30 to 6am or thereabouts.  I would just wait to start his day at around 6:30am and not even bother to try and get him back to sleep with feed because I knew he wouldn't.  He'll only go back to sleep if it's closer to 4 or 4:30am.  

Interested to know how you get on with setting the first nap time - would you aim to keep it at 9.30am even if LO woke later than usual?  Or are you waking LO up if he sleeps past a certain time to make sure there's enough A time first?

Sorry you are going through the same thing jessmum.  Must tell our LOs (Elise's as well) to stop talking to each other and conferring on how to drive their mums crazy.  

The set nap thing hasn't work well for us yet so I just use a window of 9am to 10am depending on wake-up time and mood.  A lot of times, J actually wakes earlier and he's not calling out yet so don't know if he's actually asleep.  I can usually tell it's time for a nap when he's getting agitated even if there's a change of scene.  I haven't had to wake him up in the mornings lately but I would definitely wake him by 7am to get the AM nap at 10am.  It's also because I need to get DD to day camp so we need to get the day started by 7am.

I am trying very hard not to do a nap before 9am because I know it just encourages the early waking and the day gets too early. The afternoon window is way larger because if the AM nap is short, I have to start the PM nap before my desired window of 1:30 - 2:30pm.  I am just trying to avoid OT as best I can and have a minimum of 3hrs 15mins A time.  It's been brutal trying to get him there some days, but I've stuck to it and it's been okay so far.

In my mind it was all going to be so easy by this point............

Yes, I think we all thought that! It actually was with my DD by this point, but then she was textbook so everything was totally different than with DS who is spirited/touchy.  I am setting the bar really low on my expectations and just hoping he will be STTN consistently from 7 or 7:30pm to 6am by the time he's 1.  If not, I'll have to look into boarding school for toddlers. 

[*Kara*]

It is normal to have a NF until closer to 9 months when solids are more established

[ENMS]

Jenn - in my personal opinion, I would feed him and get him back to sleep. You both need that sleep, and you've been struggling to get him to get to a later wake up and a more regular schedule, so I'd do that for now and wean it later if you see it's causing you a problem. At least he'll be on a regular schedule by then (hopefully haha!).

M will join J in that boarding school

[jennandsophie]

I agree with you Elise.  I've stuck to 7pm bedtime this whole week even though sometimes he looks ready for sleep by 5pm (after waking from his nap around 3:45pm).  This way at least we get some time as a family in the evenings instead of poor DH rushing home from work so he can put him down for the night while Sophie and I eat dinner without him.  I'll go with it for now until he stops refusing to go back to sleep after feeding at 4am.  I'm pretty sure that's going to be the next thing he throws at me.

Will let you know when I find more info on those boarding schools. 

[jessmum46]

Will let you know when I find more info on those boarding schools.

Ha ha!  Think you'll have lots of takers.......

Just wondering what you girls think about continuing to push the first A time?  Currently we're getting 1h10-15 naps on 3h15 A which is (theoretically) UT.....but if we keep pushing and pushing to get a 1h30+ nap, I can see us being in a situation where the pm nap doesn't start until about 3pm!  Guess we set a limit on first nap starting no later than 10am and just  let it shorten naturally til we're more like short am/long pm?  Thoughts??

[ENMS]

but if we keep pushing and pushing to get a 1h30+ nap, I can see us being in a situation where the pm nap doesn't start until about 3pm!

We're exactly in that situation Jessmum! Sometimes his nap doesn't start until 3:30. We're in that awkward place where if he takes a really good nap (1h30-2h) there's no time for a good second nap really and it's kinda late. I find it a bit frustrating.  There must be different approaches so you might want to do a separate post. I've thought of not putting his first nap later than 10 am but on some days, he's just not tired enough by 10 you know. For us, the 2nd nap is not very consistent (not sure why) so I usually let him sleep as long as he needs in the AM, and then do a CN if we don't have time for a proper nap. It's probably not ideal, but I'm just too scared that I'll end up with 2 short naps otherwise.

Ironic isn't it that after all this time spent fixing naps, now we have to cap them, or restrict them!

[jennandsophie]

Just wondering what you girls think about continuing to push the first A time?  Currently we're getting 1h10-15 naps on 3h15 A which is (theoretically) UT.....but if we keep pushing and pushing to get a 1h30+ nap, I can see us being in a situation where the pm nap doesn't start until about 3pm!  Guess we set a limit on first nap starting no later than 10am and just  let it shorten naturally til we're more like short am/long pm?  Thoughts??

I have tried capping the AM nap at 1hr 30 mins in order to get the PM nap to start before 3pm, but sometimes he only sleeps 1hr 10 or 15 mins in the afternoon and then seems really grumpy until bedtime.  If your LO is okay with having a shorter PM sleep (ie, anything about an hour or a bit more) than I would just let him sleep as much as he wants in the AM up to 2hs so at least you know he got one good nap in the day.

I was also thinking 3pm is really late to have a nap, but if it's a 1.5hr nap that'll take him to 4:30pm wake-up.  If your LO is the type with whom you can push bedtime a little to get a later morning wake-up then you could still do bedtime by 8pm and cross fingers you get a 6:30am or after wake-up.  Probably takes a few weeks to re-train the body clock, but it may work.  Unfortunately, my DS seems factory pre-set for a before 6am wake-up no matter what bedtime is, so hasn't worked for me as of yet.  

Ironic isn't it that after all this time spent fixing naps, now we have to cap them, or restrict them!

Yes, I remember thinking that with DD as well.  Took me months of hovering over her crib in a dark room shushing and patting and then suddenly I started having to wake her up!  What really got me was when I had to start capping her one nap to only an hour so that she'd go to bed before 9pm.  Things change so quickly.  I keep reminding myself about that.

Today, we got a 5:45am wake-up and he didn't start calling out until 6am so it wasn't bad.  He slept continuously from 7:15pm to 5:45am so 10.5hrs and didn't wake for the 4am feed.  I stretched him as much as possible for the AM nap until 9:05am but he was very grumpy.  I've everything crossed that it's not another 30 min nap or the day is pretty wonky again.

[ENMS]

Yes, I forgot to add that we pushed BT later... it used to be 7-ish, now it is 7:30-8 ish. I try to never let him sleep later than 5PM, to make BT at the latest at 8PM.

Glad you got a good night out of him. I have stretched M too this morning to 3h30, he was so happy and alert, laughing at 3h20.  Hopefully he still has a good nap.

Keep us posted how you day goes!

[jennandsophie]

1hr 15mins AM nap.  Aarghh...hate those ones because he's always grumpy afterward.