10 month old Spirited Baby......help!!

[cath73]

Thank you ladies for sticking with me!!
Yesterday she woke at 2.30pm so had a good 3 hr nap. I then started bedtime at 6pm and she was asleep by 6.45pm.......result!!( I had given her calpol to pre-empt and teething pain and she was also a bit snuffly) So i thought ........
She woke at 7.30pm (I guess still OT) so I went in to settle her (after about 5 mins of initial mantra crying which then escalated into her screaming ). She immediately quiets when I go in, and then for about 20 mins really seemed to be trying to go to sleep, I had my hand on her back (she was on her side) and I was really confident that she would go back off as she was yawning and seemed soooo tired (although I could not make any move towards her door!) However after about 20 mins it all changed and she started with the leg banging, hand clapping, trying to pull my hair etc etc. If I left the room she would absolutely scream, but if I went back in she would calm immediately although make no attempt to go back to sleep. Everything I used to do to help her to sleep does not work now. i.e if I hold her she tries to dive out of my arms, rubbing her back, sshhing. etc etc. I have thought about PU/PD but not sure how I should do it, as she does not cry whilst in the cot unless I attempt to leave the room, and I've read that it should really be PD now, but she is not sitting up in the cot or standing yet. Some advice would be appreciated.........
After 1.5 hrs of me leaning over her cot I had had enough so brought her downstairs. i attempted bedtime 3 more times with no success, even more screaming and she eventually settled at 12.15am ( I had given her an extra feed at 10.30 in the hope that would settle her!)

I have let her sleep this morning and she woke at 9am (should I have woken her at 7am as normal??) and again I am planning to put her down at 11.30/12 depending on cues and let her have a long nap (if she will stay asleep) and then early BT again, but try for 6pm tonight.

I can't remember who asked about how she settles herself in the day, but she is a different baby . I can pretty much plonk her in her cot, she mantra cries for around 3-4 mins and is asleep, and quite often is able to resettle herself if she wakes too early. Its just bedtime which is a nightmare.

Her screaming when I leave her at bedtime seems to be pure rage!! If I go back in she quietens immediately and very rarely are their tears. The problem I have with leaving her to scream apart from the fact that I can't bear it, is that she gets herself so worked up that she will vomit........and thats only after a few minutes (less than 5!). That has happened 3 times in the last month, so really don't want it to happen again as it must be so scary for her........it could even be that fear that is causing all of this, although the bedtime refusal started a couple of weeks before she was sick the first time.

I just seem to be going round in circles!! Not sure if there is any answer to this but just wanted to share!!

[skatty]

Well in our case a NW so soon after BT meant very OT, my dd classically had them after 30 mins to 1hr. It sounds like she may have just too many stress hormones in her body to sleep and that is when she crossed over into wired. As you say she is angry rather than distraught i think I would recommend you do WIWO

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

I did this with my dd around 10 months and after 3 WIWOs she was an independant sleeper, clever little spirited monkey worked out rather quickly that there was no point protesting  I know it is tempting but i wouldn't take her downstairs again, it could cause a habit and being downstairs with mum is much more interesting than sleep!

However when my dd has been extrememly OT I have resorted to AP, is there anything you could do that you know would help her sleep? I could stroke my dd's hand and she would calm down and fall asleep. I don't think PUPD is a good idea with spiriteds especially an OT one, you will probably just whip her up into a frenzy!!

FWIW I would have also let LO sleep in today and then just try and get as much sleep as possible into her during the day and try and aim for bed before she could get too OT. If you have some lavender oil you could also sprinkle some on a teddy and leave near the cot, we have had great success with calming with lavender oil, I use it on my pillow when I have insomnia 

[cath73]

So after her late WU at 9am I put her down at 12.30 and she slept till 3.30 . Then bath at 6pm and into bed by 6.30pm..............2.5 hrs later she has finally gone to sleep . I stayed with her for the first 2 hrs, did wiwo for about 50 mins but it seemed to make things worse. She was exhausted, but sooo wired. Finally I gave up and DH took over when she finally fell asleep after 30 mins.
I think she is chronically OT and probably has high sleep needs despite what I originally thought! The problem I face is that on friday we are going on a family camping trip.........so its all going to go wrong again then!

[Smurfette]

There is a chance that you're hitting developmental issues plus OT and it's probably best to just go on the camping trip, enjoy it and then come up with a bedtime sleep training plan and really stick with it.
 These LOs are super smart and learn cause and effect pretty quick and every time you take her out of the room, reinforces that if she protests long and hard enough, then bedtime is over for a few hours.
Sleep training is always really, really, REALLY hard the first 3-4 days and it can take 2-3 hours each time to get them to sleep during those days, but if you are super consistent, once you past those first days, it gets better quite quickly after that.
Another option for you to try is to just stay in the room and use the Chair method or mattress method. This *might* prevent her from getting more worked up each time you leave. You just have to make sure you have a plan how to leave. Usually every 3 days you move further away from the crib. I think the mattress method is explained a bit in BWSAYP.
But whatever you choose, make sure you are completely familiar with it and understand why you're doing it as it's easy to get frustrated and give up if you're not completely committed.
Big hugs again!

[skatty]

I know it sounds crazy because she is very OT but I wonder if after a 3hr nap she would have been better having a 3½ hr A time again as that worked in the morning, she may have been a little UT and then straight into OT, almost impossible to know though 

Enjoy your camping trip, you never know it might go well, sometimes getting in a completely different environment and out of routine means LO c atches up woith sleep on their own schedule and all that fresh air may work wonders 

[cath73]

Hello ladies, just wanted to update so far!
After finally going to sleep last night she woke at 1.15am (resettled after 30 mins) and then again at 4.15am, took till 5.45am that time . Not like her to have 2 NW, (she rarely has 1) but guess its the OT monster!.
I let her sleep again until 8.30am when she woke very happy .
Nap at 12 (went down sooo easily, chatted for a couple of minutes and then asleep till 2.30pm
So did bath at 5.30pm and she was asleep by 6pm . She had a short WU at 7pm but I was able to settle her within about 20 mins and there was none of the extreme screaming thank goodness .

Soooo we will see what the night brings. I am fully expecting her to wake at least once, but hope she will settle more easily.

 I do think we may be finally catching up on her sleep, so unless she has an awful night I am going to wake her at 7am tomorrow if she's sleep and try to go back to 2 naps .........although I am now pretty confused as to what she needs!
 The 3.5hr A time seems to be spot on, but is that because she's OT?
I think that I used to let her stay awake for longer, up to 4.5-5hrs as she never seemed to show that she was tired. This has probably been why she has gradually got more and more OT, combined with the really late bedtimes she has had recently!

Before all of this started (at around 8 months ish) she was having a 45 min am nap and a 1.5-2 hr afternoon nap.......Trying to fit in 2 decent naps with the A time we need will just result in a later bedtime?
She is responding really well to 1 long nap at the moment, but that is because her day starts late and finishes early!............getting very confused..........it was sooo much simpler with my DS!

Zacsmumme, Skatty and Smurfette, thank you so much for your fab advice so far.........you have kept me focused and positive

[ZacsMumme]

I do think we may be finally catching up on her sleep, so unless she has an awful night I am going to wake her at 7am tomorrow if she's sleep and try to go back to 2 naps

I agree, based on your last few days.
It can be tough as while they catch up on OT, it is easy to then stick with too shorter A times and they then get OT again through UT naps

See how the night goes. if it is a good one then try 2 naps with the 3.5hr A time, then if that goes well, and you know prior to all this she was doing

45 min am nap and a 1.5-2 hr afternoon nap.......Trying to fit in 2 decent naps with the A time we need will just result in a later bedtime?

you can either cap the 45 min nap to 30 and bring hte A time back ~20/30mins (we did 2hrs A to BT but that was a PM CN - not AM) Or you can increase the A times a touch and have a longer day.

[skatty]

This is probably coming a bit late but to be honest if she is sleeping in late in the mornings and then managing to have one  long nap and an early BT then this is really good. The most restorative sleep happens at night! My dd went from having terrible naps but once on the road to óne nap with a catnap thrown in sometimes she started having longer and longer nights 14½-15hrs overnight!! She is nearly 6 and still needs 12½ or she is a mess (like right now  ) I do think 3½hrs A time is good at the mo' but when she catches up with sleep it will probably be a bit short. If she does onĉly need 3½ hrs A time when not OT then she is not ready for 1 nap at all!!

[cath73]

Well..............she slept through from 6pm (with the short WU at 7pm) until i woke her at 7.30!! .Unheard of for her to have such a long stretch of NT sleep!! In fact, she has NEVER slept that long!!

 She was fast asleep at 7.30, so sort of wish I'd let her sleep now, based on your post Skatty! Although, I also want to see what 'normal' day looks like again so am following the suggestion from ZM today, as I have no real idea about her A times now 
In order to fit in 2 naps I am going to try for a 10am catnap.......a very short A time and cap her sleep to 45 (if she sleeps that long) and then have her longer nap at 2pm, and bedtime 3.5hrs after that.
I guess that its all about experimenting now, so we'll see. I do like the idea of a longer night and shorter day with 1 nap, but like you say, if her A times are too short then that won't work.
 I have a horrible feeling that I have totally misread my little girl with regards to A times etc......she is so difficult to read, as when tired she is still happy and smiley, the eye rubbing  and yawning are almost too late.....will be watching her like a hawk today!!

[cath73]

So I'm having to wing it already! Tried for a catnap at 10, then at 10.30 but no chance, back to the screaming behaviour seen at bedtimes,
So I am assuming that as she had a good long night sleep I can stretch her A time this morning and aim for 1 long nap at 11.30 and give her another very early bedtime..........she certainly knows how to keep me on my toes!!

[skatty]

Don't beat yourself up about not being able to work out A times, it is almost impossible!! I also found the ey rubbing and yawns too late  I hope she has a good long nap and a nice long night ready for your trip 

[ZacsMumme]

Hun what was working before all the short naps and OT crept in? I sometimes have to go back first to know where to move forward. ...
It is likely that she needed an A increase or routine tweak before this started, typically they get in these muddles when they need one, or hit developmental milestones.

Wonderful about your night!

[cath73]

ZM, to be honest, I'm not really sure what was working as her bedtime was still pretty hit and miss although it was never as extreme as its been recently.
At 8 months, she was having 1 2 hr nap and 1 45 min nap each day, was sttn and bedtimes were manageable although with hindsight, the only 'perfect' bedtime was when she feel asleep during her feed............so far from 'perfect'!!
She has always been great at naps, we weaned dummy at 4 months without too much pain, (wish we hadn't now as she doesn't have anything to help her settle!!) Tried a lovey but not at all interested but will keep on persevering.

So after the amazing night, we had a great day.

A 7.30am (I woke her)
S 11.30am (tried at 10 and again at 10.30 but no chance!)
A 2.30pm on the dot!
BT 6.30 (thought I'd try 4 hrs A time like she managed in the morning)
A 7.15pm
Still awake now (at 10.20pm)
Tried to settle her for over 2 hrs, and then left room to go to the loo, which resulted her screaming and then vomiting everywhere (I was no longer than 2 mins......she escalated that quickly )
So had to bath her which obviously put an end to bedtime, so she is downstairs with us and will be going to bed shortly ( I hope)...........so annoyed we ended up bringing her down as we have managed not to do it for the last 4 nights.........but she was so distressed  .
She is not ill, there may be a bit of teething going on but her cold has gone and she seems perfectly happy now.

Oh well, off on our trip tomorrow, so will just relax and go with the flow, and then start again on tuesday

[ZacsMumme]

hugs, enjoy your trip and try not to worry about sleep too much
When your back we can all help you come up with a plan. Looks like the 4 hr first A is good....

[skatty]

Yes have a nice trip and then get back to it then. I think she may be able to handle a longer morning A time but need a shorter one before bed, my dd was the same and so are many others