19 Month old, EW's and Crying at BT

[AN190781]

Hi,

I have been on the forum previously as we have problems with EW's before.  I thought that we had got on track, but now yet again things have changed and I need some advice.

Current nursery day schedule:

5.30 - 6.00am - A
12.00 - 12.30PM S
2.00 - 2.30PM A
7.00PM BT

On days when we are at home I put him down for his nap earlier maybe 11-11.30am.  He will still normally nap for 2 hours and bt is still 7.00pm.

I am finding that we are getting these chronic EW's again, which lead to a very long morning especially at nursery, then the afternoon's are very short.  At BT as soon as I leave the room he starts to cry and it take a few times of re-settling to get him to go off.  He always used to be able to go off by himself easily.

I'm struggling to understand if he is sleeping too long in the day now and he is not tired enough for bt?  Is this why we have the EW's and crying when I put him to bed or is it because he is overtired?

We have had some teething lately, but he seems fine again at the moment.  Some times we will have a couple of NW's normally between 2 & 4, but I just resettle with dummy.

Do 19month olds still need to sleep for 2 hours during the day?  Or is it because he is making up for lost nightime sleep?

Any advice would be welcome.

Thanks

[Lolly]

It sounds like he is OT to me - EWs are always OT in my house!

Is he only having 30 mins at nursery or was that a typo?

I would pull bedtime an hour earlier for a while and see if that helps him to catch up. Once he has caught up and the EWs have stopped you can push bedtime back later and you may well need to cap the nap too. You will need to do early bedtime for a number of days to see results from it though.

What do you think?

Laura

[AN190781]

Hi,

Thanks for your post, yes I meant that he goes down between 12.00 - 12.30pm and then sleeps for 2 hours.
I agree I think that it is OT, but it's the crying when he goes to bed, he used to be so good.  I'm not sure of the OT causes more SA, making him more upset at nighttime.  I just feel so guilty putting him to bed early, especially on nursery days.
I've just tried putting him down now at 6.30pm and he's still awake, it's a constant battle.  Normally we watch in the night garden together then bedtime, but maybe it's stimulating him too much.

Guess we will try early night tomorrow and no tv.  I'll wait and see what tonight brings

Thanks

[<Catherine>]

Yes, I'd say he was OT too. On nursery days, the morning A is long after such an early WU so he's already OT before the nap.

I agree that BT needs to be earlier, but keep at it for a few more days and see if it helps.

[AN190781]

Hi,

So I have been trying to stick to early bt's, but he's finding it hard to wind down.  Also to help get him to sleep I have had to do WI/WO, but that seems to have helped we are not having as much crying and protesting now.

But now I think we have entered Night terrors.  A couple of nights now, I go in normally about 11.30pm and he is all over the place and it takes ages to register I'm there with him.  I know this is due to OT.

But at nursery I can't tell them when to put him to sleep as he might not go, it's completly different to at home.  So i think my only option is early BT?

Thanks for any help.

[<Catherine>]

Yes, stick with it. How early are you doing? What has WU, nap and BT looked like over the last couple of days?

[AN190781]

He went down well on Friday night, around 6.30pm no protesting straight to sleep.
Then saturday, he woke at 6.00am, he went  for a sleep at 11.50 and he slept until 1.45 when he woke himself.  He then went to bed at 6.45pm on saturday and woke again at 6.00am on sunday after a short NW at 11.30pm.  We went out for the day but he slept for an hour and 45mins in the car.
Today he woke at 6.00am and went to nursery he went to sleep at 12.10pm until 1.20pm, not a good day!  I put him to bed at 6.00pm and he fell asleep by around 6.20pm.  It just feels like we keep getting into this OT loop, as soon as I think we are getting on top of it, it sets in again.  I can't remember the last time he woke at 7.00am in the morning after doing a good decent night.

Thanks for your help.

[clairebear79]

I'm afraid I'll contradict here & say the reason you aren't getting a 7am WU is because his nap is too early starting at 12pm most days. I had a similar experience with my DS, he was napping at 11-11.30am for 2hrs most days, bed 6.30-7pm & he would wake 5.30ish.  I felt he was OT because his nights were short, but in fact it was the early nap that encouraged the earlier wake & which kept his nights short.   I pushed it gradually later, 15mins each week until his wakeup time got a bit later.  We did this for a while:

Up: 6.30-7ish
Nap: 12.30-2.30
Bed: 7.30

then at around 20 months it went to this:
Up:   7/7.15
Nap: 1-3
Bed: 8pm

As he's got older his morning has got longer but his afternoon has stayed the same at 5hrs A time after a 2hr nap.  The downside: I've had to accept that a later nap meant he needed a slightly later bedtime, but it really did improve his wakeup time & in our house, we'd rather have an hour less evening time than be up at 5am!  Now at 2yrs old, he still does the above routine, is in bed before 8pm but is usually asleep nearer to 8.30pm.  For ages we tried capping his nap shorter in order to have him asleep earlier but he got so very OT.  So for my DS, this works better, he still gets a good 10.5hrs overnight & a nice long 2-2.5hr nap in the day. 

So, for your DS, I would suggest first of all try pushing the nap later, very gradually 15mins per week until its consistently at 12.30pm & possibly even 1pm.  If you find he is no longer tired enough to fall asleep at 7pm then you have 2 choices - do a slightly later BT, or if you would prefer to keep a 7pm BT (which I would completely understand!)  cut the nap slightly, 15mins at a time & see if a combination of slightly later & slightly shorter nap sorts things out.

HTH.x

[AN190781]

Thanks Clairebear, that's definitley given me something to think about.  I have noticed his canines are now cutting through so it seems this could be a big part of it all now.  Perhaps this is what is making him so tired?  At nursery they say he has been very agitated and bad tempered, I was assuming this was because he was so tired, could it just be teeth?
Though we have been having EW's for quite sometime, we never got any later when he transitioned to 1 nap.  So once things are better, I think I'm going to give this routine a try.

Were Canines bad for other Lo's?

Thanks x

[creations]

Canines are the PITS!  Really, they hurt and hurt and just when you think they've cut and the pain is easing they just keep on moving and hurting.  They'll cause all sorts of sleep disturbance, what looks like night terrors and other NWs, grumbling in the day but also extra tiredness in the day too.  I know i'm not the only one had to put DS down for his nap stupidly early a few times because of canines (when I say stupidly early I mean he was BEGGING for a nap at about 9.30am instead of his regular 12.30pm!!).

My thoughts are along the lines of Clairebear's, that you could do with the nap coming later (but allow for the canines).  Mine (also 19 months) has always liked a long morning A time so we've been at a 12.30 nap for a long time now and he's been showing signs that it needs to move later.  So I'd say 12.30 nap would be worth a try.  Clairebears LO did well with 5hrs to BT, mine always like a shorter afternoon so 4.5hrs did us for a long time, he just couldn't have coped with 5hrs to BT he'd be clawing the walls trying to get to bed (this is just changing now too).

[<Catherine>]

Yes, canines could well be a big part of the issue - have you tried medicating?

My worry with the nap is that if he's already OT and you push him too much then you'll end up with a short OT nap and even more problems at BT. But try it gradually as the girls have suggested.

He's actually getting good sleep overall, and the nights are a good length (he's not techinically EWing as he's getting around 11.5 hours at night, plus the nap), it's just not timed very well atm - shifting the nap is probably the only way to solve this but it can be tricky. Nothing I do here changes our BT and WU - we're stuck on 6pm to 6am (no nap, generally), but I'll live with that as anything I do tends to make WU earlier!

[AN190781]

Thank you all for your advice. 
Last night was much better he slept through with no NW's until 6.00am this morning, so a 11.5hr night.  I know it was still early but a better night overall.
He is at nursery today, so I will have to see what time they put him to sleep and how well he does and then judge his mood to decide bedtime?  I feel upset having to keep putting him to bed so early on nursery days when we barely see him.  We have some days off soon, so I will try with a later nap and see what happens.

Thanks 

[AN190781]

Hi,

So yesterday went:

A - 6.00am
S - 12.40pm (Nursery)
A - 2.15pm

So I put him to bed at 6.30 pm and he moaned and fell asleep just after 7.00pm.  Did I put him to bed too early?
Today he woke at 5.20am .

I'm at home with him today but am clueless as to what to do with his sleeps and bt.  Where do I start today?


Any help welcome, thanks x

[AN190781]

So today went:

A- 5.30AM
S - 12.00PM
A - 2.40PM
S - 7.20PM

Seems like a really long day but he was in a really good mood after his monster nap, he settled well and went to sleep within 15mins of me putting him down.  Do you think his day is too long?
I suppose I will find out tonight

Thanks

[j.and.e]

hey hun. At 19 mo i cut my ds2 nap to 1.5 and do 8pm bt, so we have wu 7am nap 1-2.30 bt 7.30 but he falls asleep at 8pm or later. He does 11hr nites and 1.5hr days. It looks like your ds is getting lots of sleep, so i think if u want a later wu u need a later bt and nap as pp said. Xx