Time to adjust routine? Or developmental?

[ZacsMumme]

Here is our current routine with Z at 22 mths. It's a bit flexible ATM

WU between 6-7
Nap depending on night before and WU/Z behaviour 12.30-1 to 2.30 (so 1.5-2 hrs usually 1hr 45)
BT 7-7.15pm

He used to wake pretty religiously around 6.20 out of cot is always 7 unless poorly, crying etc. lately he has been doing 2 shorter nights, then a long one making me wonder if he's in a bit ofan Ut/OT loop ie catching up day 3. But his nap has been the same length forever!

Two odd things happened the last 3 days.
2.5 hr long odd NW fri night 12.30-3 (well in 2 NW but I don't think he went to sleep between)
Last night he cried 30 mins after BT suspect he hadn't gone to sleep yet. Just wanted cuddles from me ANd DH it seemed

We actually increased naps abit through canine teething. Last has cut now. He seems to be having a developmental leap too.

Any thoughts...hold for now or try a tweak?

[cuckoochick]

So so tricky isn't it Sara? We're not having NWs as such or nap refusals but BT shenanigans galore and I just can't put my finger on what it is so am just riding it out for now. C has started having nightmares though and wakes crying on odd nights buy you pick her up and she falls back to sleep immediately. C takes an age to settle at BT but will sleep in like anything the next day

[cath~]

Hmm. Sounds to me with long/short nights and long NW that could def be (partly) and ot/ut loop.

Is he still teething or is that over now? Perhaps try capping nap to 1hr30 every day to see if helps. 2 sleep cycles should be enough.

L is def going through a development leap at the moment too. We have noticed change in what she's saying/how she's saying it and she is also taking ages to settle at bed and nap time. She just doesn't stop chattering! At least 30 mins at BT. Today L chattered for 50 mins before nodding off for nap so we capped it bit more than usual cos was so late in end. Since it's been taking her around 30 mins to nod off at BT (and she doesn't really get chance to 'lie in' Mon-Thurs when I work) I've neen putting her down bit earlier at BT so it's not too late when she eventually nods off.

[ZacsMumme]

Thanks ladies, the long NW was a 1 off...really odd too as he wasn't overly distressed, i wondered if I was that he couldn't get backto sleep KWIM.

It's a muddle....Everytime I go to tweak Z comes right ... We typically have hanging out in the cot at BT on and off, up to 30/45 mins but this comes and goes.

All canines cut now, last is still pushing up though so a bit of discomfort there.

I think I will cap at 1.5...and go for 7 pm BT. He certainly doesn't behave OT but I'm wondering if Hess touch in a loop as you say Catherine.

Do you ladies think this could at all be baby related? SA etc .... I'm 33 wks now and he has been on and off clingy

[creations]

Perhaps try capping nap to 1hr30 every day to see if helps. 2 sleep cycles should be enough.

At this age surely this is one sleep cycle? isn't it?
I'm sure DS's sleep cycle is now 1hr 20.  In the BW book Tracy said cycle lengthens at 6 months I think although judging by nap habits and difficulties most seen on the boards it seems that it happens later, or perhaps is a very gradual lengthening.

There's similar-ish stuff going on here too, but DS is a few months younger so his is likely a developmental leap you've already been through Sara.  There's always something isn't there.
Hope it resolves soon x

[ZacsMumme]

I have no idea what Zs cycle is Maybe 1.15 lol anywho....my son has become an enigma, I used to find it easy to work him out

He likes to nap at 12.30 and when I push this out too much he seems to be rubbish after the nap so I PD at 12.30 I'll wake at 2.15 (usually would be 12 30) I'm assuming he takes a few mins to settle to sleep too.

Stick with typical 7-7.15 pm BT? I find he settles better at 7 ...

[cath~]

Perhaps try capping nap to 1hr30 every day to see if helps. 2 sleep cycles should be enough.

At this age surely this is one sleep cycle? isn't it?
I'm sure DS's sleep cycle is now 1hr 20.  In the BW book Tracy said cycle lengthens at 6 months I think although judging by nap habits and difficulties most seen on the boards it seems that it happens later, or perhaps is a very gradual lengthening.

Good point... Not sure what they are now.  But with naps I know at 30 mins L is in deep sleep but at 35-45 mins it's lighter and she wakes more easily/quickly (we are nap-capping at 35 mins now )

Could be some SA Sara. I know L has SA that comes and goes too though (think quite common still at this age) and I'm def not PG so it's not that. As I said, she had big leap the other week. Also coincided with when we were on hol at my parents and when we got back, and I was back at work (but even before that)  she was extra clingy to me for a few days. So could be anything that causes it.

[cuckoochick]

C still goes into light sleep at 40 minute mark too because she always wakes at 40 mins in a car nap. Very rare for more.

Sara, we've been at 1.5hrs for ages and I know I should cap at 1hr as C handles it well. What is Z like after a capped nap because I guess it's easy for me to say cap it to 1.5hrs and then him be a grizzly bear all afternoon. Oh and a 7pm BT...what is that???!! C needs a almost 6hr A time after any length nap to go to sleep unless we have had a mega mega active day. We need a 26hr day here and all would be well!

[creations]

I have no idea what Zs cycle is Maybe 1.15 lol anywho....my son has become an enigma, I used to find it easy to work him out

I think you're prob right about his cycle being 1hr 15.  Do you hear him make a transition then?  I don't know enough theory of how the cycle lengthens with age (would be great to find info on this wouldn't it?  It would help all of us I'm sure) but DS appeared to swing between 1hr 10 and 1hr 15, then kind of 1hr 15 and 1hr 20.  I heard enough transitions during good naps and slightly disturbed ones, at these times to guess it was his cycle (I also popped in when there was a noisy transition in case he needed me to resettle, even without me I saw he would turn over and go back to sleep).  Capping at the wrong time (in deep sleep) results in a really grouchy LO where as capping during the lighter sleep is a happier wake up.

We're doing the same nap as you atm although our morning WU is earlier and BT is getting trickier and trickier.  I think DS the routine is so embedded that he feels it's time for nap and BT even though he needs a long A.  Do you think this could be the case with Z?

I can't imagine how difficult it must be being pregnant and also trying to work out sleep needs too, esp when there are so many developmental leaps, SA, moving teeth etc etc going on at the same time.
xx

[ZacsMumme]

He doesn't really transition anymore just sleep till I wake him unless he is poorly, in which we hear 1hr15 or 1hr45 min cryouts In the car we only get 50 mins or so though.....

Creations, it could be that he's used tithe time, but he really will take a nap wherever I offer it TBH. He can last till 2 really, but then gets OT over a few days. His nap has been ~2 hrs since Xmas!

Catherine - the BT settling is def developmental here to I 'think' it is on and off though

Nicola - lol re long day. Because Z is touchy spirited I've discovered he needs that sleep, but doesn't show it accept in his heavier over time KWiM. It's a PITa to work out though!

Anywho, we had an awful event last night. DH and Z fell down the stairs. Luckily DH was holding Z and he was unscathed (but very upset) so BT ended up being 7.20 and he crashed phew.
WU 6.40 ish...

Do you think I should take this later WU to offer shorter nap of 1.5 and see how he goes? Ie
Nap 12.45/1 to 2.30 I need to make sure he gets a full 1.5 though BT going for 7/7.15 again.

[creations]

Oh so sorry to hear about the fall!  Good to hear no one is hurt though!

unless he is poorly, in which we hear 1hr15 or 1hr45 min cryouts

Well, it's only a guess based on what I've found with DS but I'd say these times sound like a transition from one cycle to another at 1hr 15 and a transition from light to deep at 1hr 45 (about 30 min into the second cycle). Possibly.  You know the way that the LOs go from light to deep at 20 mins so if there's going to be a pain/illness/OT cry out it would be at 20 min but a full sleep cycle WU at 40/45 min.  It only really matters if he gets the grouch from being capped from deep sleep.  I know DS can be upset for a long time if I cap at the wrong time iyswim.

If it was me with the decent length nights I'd go for trimming the nap back rather than a later BT.  I think we're heading to an 8pm BT and I'm pretty miserable about it tbh, by 7pm I'm really ready for him to go to bed. 
If you start to see OT signs from 1.5hr over time you could up it to 1hr 40 maybe?

[ZacsMumme]

Sounds like a good plan my problem is he settles so well now at nap and BT that when I don't hear him I don't actually know when he drifts off KWiM? I often pop my headin after 15 mins to confirm he is asleep, but if he ever isn't I risk him popping up and wanting out

I agree I think those times are transition times. Though after a 1.5 hr nap he is sometimes a grouchy pants he is typically sensitive anyway though. We generally have a process on nap WU now to minimize the fallout.

I DeF don't want a later BT, not much later anyway. Rather an earlier am if I have to. DH leaves for wk early anyway and with 2 coming I'll be likely to be up early. At least this way we have evenings to chill, or crash too if we need to

[creations]

At least this way we have evenings to chill, or crash too if we need to

Oh yes that sounds like an excellent plan.  In the early days with NB it would also be nice to have Z already tucked up in bed so you can get both a little chill time and also a little just baby time at those evening feeds (well, I had DS downstairs until around 10 - 10.30 pm up to 10 weeks as he started his night sleep in his play pen and I did the evening and dream feeds downstairs then transferred him upstairs when I went to bed, which is why I say that).

Though after a 1.5 hr nap he is sometimes a grouchy pants

I used to be really against capping until I was convinced otherwise here because I was worried about him being grouchy.  But now he wakes up better from a cap than on his own (if on his own he goes to say 1hr 45 or 2hrs).  I think he gets a bit too much on his own and it makes him feel over-slept and groggy.  Through the teething etc disturbances I've had quite a few natural wake ups at 1hr 20/1hr 15 (unhappy and still tired) and I'll put in the effort to re-settle just to wake him again about 20 mins later - he wakes really happily, waving and saying hello when I do that!  So odd!  I'd SO love to have an app that hooked into his sleep cycle so I knew when he was at his most rested and optimum time to wake him - wouldn't that be amazing!?

I often pop my headin after 15 mins to confirm he is asleep, but if he ever isn't I risk him popping up and wanting out

Similar here too although recently SA which is just impossible.  He wants me there because of the SA (and I'm sitting for an age by his bed) but generally can't fall asleep if I am there.  He wants me to hold him but can't fall asleep in my arms, and if I put a hand on him in his bed he throws it off like I touched him with a hot poker.  That head popping up when you sneak in makes your heart sink eh?  I just think 'oh no!' as I become trapped for another 30 - 60 mins.

[ZacsMumme]

I'd SO love to have an app that hooked into his sleep cycle so I knew when he was at his most rested and optimum time to wake him

ohhh I want!!! 

So last two days nap time has been 12.45-2.30 (I KNOW he is asleep by 1 but not sure how much before)
Both nights we havent heard a peep after BT at 7...but have heard him at ~5/5.30 before he goes back to sleep till closer to 6.45.
I think tomorrow I will offer a 2 hr nap (which will likely be 1hr45) and BT at 7/7.15 and see how he goes, I 'think' if I do 1.5 every day he may get a touch OT

FX

[creations]

Hope it works out xx