17mo, low sleep needs, thinking of cutting nap, any advice first pls?

[badpixie]

Hi,

the last few weeks my lo's sleep needs seem to have been undergoing some changes, sometimes I think he's in ot/ut loop, sometimes I just think he has low sleep needs and maybe I need to think about cutting his naps to try and get a better routine going. I've left things for the moment to see how things pan out but his bedtime is getting later and later and I need my Y time!!

Ok his typical day until recently kinda look like this:

WU   7ish
A       5hrs 45min
Nap  12.30 - 2.30
A       5hrs 45mins
Bed   8ish

This is most common scenario and the ideal, but he can actually wake up anytime between 6.15 and 8ish, so the day gets pushed in either direction, but I'll try and push for as near to the sleep times as he can handle. Also his nap used to be 2hrs 15 but is now is averaging 1hr 30 - 45mins, but can be up to 2hrs or 1hr 20ish. I recently extended the A times out to 6 hrs, because he seem to be taking longer to fall asleep at nap/bedtimes, so I thought he needed longer A times so now his A is 6hrs (!!)
I think this has helped but his day has been slowly creeping later and later.
yesterday looked like this:
WU 7
Nap 1 till 3
bed 9.30!

I was sure he must be overtired and would wake at 6 (his current default wu when ot at bedtime regardless of the actual time he went to sleep) but he slept till 8:30!! thiswill put BT at nearly 10;30!! which is past my bedtime!

We've just put him down for a nap (an hr early at 1.30) and we're thinking we'll wake him after 1 hr 20 (his sleep cycles are 40mins) and try for a 8/8;30 bedtime to try and correct for this jetlag.

This is the total opp of what we were going thru 1 year ago when his WU was creeping earlier peaking at 3;30am, I prefer this problem I must say

Anyhow, just wondering if anyone can offer any advice or suggestions. Is he too young to be capping naps on a regular basis? Have I got this wrong and his a times are way off the mark. Is it possible for a times to decrease at this age? How can I rule out OT/UT loop?

Thanks all!
x

[clairebear79]

Hiya

I had similar thoughts at that age that my DS needed his nap cut but yk what - he didn't!  There is a wonder week at around 17 months which can have a big impact on sleep, then you may well find things go wonky again at 18 months with the 18 month regression (a combo of language explosion, increased awareness of independence & therefore SA, teething, & a slight drop in overall sleep needs/increase in A times).  Things were wonky for us for a good few weeks & I started nap capping but all it did was make DS overtired.  We also found DS needed an increase in A time in the morning to 6hrs. 

So at 16/17 months he was doing:

Up: ~7am
Nap: 12.30-2.30
Bed: 7.30 (but by 18 months he wasn't falling asleep til 8ish & then started waking at 6ish)

When we pushed his nap later to increase his morning A time his routine went to:

Up: ~7am
Nap: 1-3pm
Bed: 8.00pm (straight to sleep)

He is still doing this routine at 2yrs old, though sometimes he takes until 8.30pm to fall asleep.  I've found he copes much better with a decent restorative nap during the day & a slightly later BT, than if I cap his nap short & do an earlier BT.

Something I notice with your DS's routine is that you are giving him the same A time in the morning and afternoon.  I think to give him 6hrs A on both sides of his nap is likely to make him overtired & it leads to this issue of his BT being too late which has a knock on effect on the next day.  IIWY I would keep the nap at 1pm but keep bedtime at its former time i.e. 8pm & see how he settles.  If he takes a wee while eg 30mins, but is just chatting in his bed, thats fine!

If you want to try & keep things a bit more consistent, one thing you could try is to wake him at 7am each day, so he always takes his nap at the same time & should therefore be happy to go to bed at the same time.  I did do this at your DS's age, but TBH its not something I like doing (unless we have to get up for work) because if he needs the sleep he needs the sleep.  But by letting them sleep in the mornings you have to accept more variability to your day.  One other way to combat that is to set the latest time at which you are willing to let him nap.  For an 8pm BT I would suggest 3pm.  So if one day he wakes at 7am, he naps 1-3pm & bed at 8pm.  The next day he wakes at 7.30, nap 1.30-3pm (wake him at 3pm) to preserve BT at 8pm.  Make sense?

HTH.xx

[badpixie]

Thanks clairebear, i think our lo's are quite similar, I read some of your stuff on the 2-1 thread and applied it when we were having awful EW and it really helped!

I'd hate to wake him in the morning and normally I sleep till he wakes me anyway (I'm a student so thats one luxury I have ) He used to prefer a shorter A time in the pm but that switched after the 2-1 and this was around the time he started to walk. Today we had a good day, he woke at 7ish went down for his nap easily at 12;30 and slept till 2 but had to be resettled twice. Then he fought bedtime at 8 because we were late getting him home so he was ot I have the feeling that he is getting ot at bedtime anyway even though he also seems to need 6 hrs before bed! Its so confusing!

I think I will try for the longer A in the morning and shorter in the pm tomorrow like you have suggested and see how bt is this way round. Hopefully he will nap better this way.

Thanks again!

x

[badpixie]

Hiya me again,

Ok so yesterday we had a 6hr A in the morning and tried for 5hr in the pm, but it took an hour to get him to sleep, whereas it would normally take less than 15mins! This was after a 1hr 30min nap. then we had a few NW including a 30min NW at 5am which i was really worried was gonna turn into a EW. Then he slept till 7.30am.

This morning he has been quite grizzly and sensitive and looks visibly tired, so I'm gonna go for a short morning and long pm after all.  Unless you really think I should try and stick with the long am/short pm? I'm asking because with the 2 - 1 my instinct was to go with long am nap and short pm nap because this seemed to be what he prefered, but I was wrong and we got the EW cycle. So I'm all ears (eyes?)

I'm beginning to think this is developmental after all and maybe we should just try and ride it out.

[AN190781]

Hi Badpixie,

My ds is nearly 20 months and we have just been through this too.  We went through the stage where he was taking ages to go to sleep, and generally needed less sleep.  I think it is just a case of riding it out, as clairebear mentioned the regression and wonder week they are doing all sorts and it's hard to stick with anything.  I think we are just coming out of this now, as he is going to sleep a lot easier at night now and seems to tire more easily again, phew!

Good luck, as I was told it's just another phase!

[clairebear79]

Ok so yesterday we had a 6hr A in the morning and tried for 5hr in the pm, but it took an hour to get him to sleep, whereas it would normally take less than 15mins! This was after a 1hr 30min nap. then we had a few NW including a 30min NW at 5am which i was really worried was gonna turn into a EW. Then he slept till 7.30am.

Its so hard to say why he took longer to go to sleep.  It may have been too long a morning, too short a nap or too short an A time to BT.  Or it may be none of these things & because he didn't sleep so well in the few days prior.  Or it could entirely be developmental (which I have to say is quite likely at this age).  As pp says, it can be hard to stick with anything during the 17-18 month stage, and then it suddenly goes back to normal.

The other thing to remember is, when you try something new, it can take a good few weeks for them to settle into the swing of things so you can't be sure if it will/won't suit him on the basis of one day, you need to do it consistently for a wee while before making a judgement.

Unless you really think I should try and stick with the long am/short pm?  I'm asking because with the 2 - 1 my instinct was to go with long am nap and short pm nap because this seemed to be what he prefered, but I was wrong and we got the EW cycle. So I'm all ears (eyes?)

My only reason for suggesting 6hrs A was because you said you were already doing it, and my reason for suggesting a shorter afternoon is because doing 6hrs A at both ends of the day is likely to make him OT. I found with my DS that as he's got older his nap has gradually moved later & later, so his morning A has extended & his afternoon A has shortened slightly to around 5hrs. I found with my DS that doing his nap too early always led to EW, so for us the best solution has always been to shift the nap later.  But there is no set rule as to which A time should be  the longer one, some LO's like a shorter morning/earlier nap & others like a shorter afternoon. 

The main thing is to find the ideal naptime for him, so he goes down without being overtired.  If you do 6hrs & you are having to resettle him mid nap then I'd say he is OT & its a touch too long.   So try putting him down a wee bit sooner & see if that suits him better.  My DS was about 19 months when we went to a consistent 6hr A in the AM.

[badpixie]

Thanks AN that's reassuring!

Thanks ClaireBear, I will try and be a bit more aware of him over the next week or so and try to play it by ear a bit then. His signals have always been so confusing, so I've tended to clock watch and it's worked really well till now, I feel a bit lost! He did 5 hr 45minsfor both A's for a while now, but now I don't know where we are from one day to the next! Will try pushing that am A out gradually I reckon, because it seems to have suddenly dropped to nearer to 5 hrs, but I think he is quite OT generally at the moment. He went down for his nap easy today after 5hrs, but only sleep 1.5hrs. but then he had a really grizzly day And he put up a fight a bedtime, but fell asleep quickly in then end by 8 after 6hrs. Will have to see how tonight and the morning go. Hopefully his night will be more restful.

I reckon if we try and push that am A out over a few days until we get a longer nap, that'll probably help some. Maybe fixed nap/bedtimes could work for this developmental bit at least?

We are away camping for a night tomorrow, so any normal sleep pattern will fall away! Hopefully the fresh air and exercise will wipe him out and we can start again on monday!