Author Topic: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!  (Read 1495 times)

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Offline natalie.vd.rijt

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Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« on: September 06, 2012, 20:45:31 pm »
Our LO just turned 5 months old a few days ago. She is a Spirited Baby, and just like the book said, she started to sleep through the night at 3 months. We have a very 'strict' bedtime ritual which we have followed every night (taken from the book Baby Secrets by Jo Tantum) since she was about 3weeks old. We were feeling very pleased with ourselves….. until about 3 weeks ago when it all changed.

We had a very hot weekend (I live in Holland, so we're not used to anything much above 30 degrees!) and she was having a growth spurt (20 weeks). To top it off, it was her first week at day care. I had gone back to work one month earlier, but my Mum had been staying with us and looking after her every day in our flat, so she was in familiar surroundings and she had no problems adjusting. Going to day care seems to be another matter entirely! Im pretty sure that it was this combination that set her off with the NWs, but ever since then it just seems to go from bad to worse.

Day time naps are extremely irregular. In fact her whole routine is now irregular because of going to day care. Actually, I should point out she goes to a child minder who has 4 kids of her own, and looks after one other boy who is 3 years old.  She has 2 year old twins who are at home, and two older kids who are at school.

Here is her routine from today (at home with me):

5am awake and grizzling, but not really hard crying so I left her to try to settle herself. After an hour, at 6, she settled (I didn't go in to her at all. If the crying had been hard at any point i would have!).

6.45 awake again. But this is the normal time we get her up.
E  7am feed 150ml formula.
A  playing with me, and lying under her activity arch.
S  8.15 tired, down for a nap, asleep almost immediately.
9am I woke her by accident, she was still tired, but wouldn't go back to sleep. Normally this is her longest nap when she's at home - around 2 hours. (With the child minder her longest nap is at lunch time where she has around 3 hours!!)
A  bath with mummy, playing under activity arch and practising rolling over :-).
S 10am tired, but when i laid her in bed she cried really hard! After an hour of trying to settle her (shah pat) I gave up and got her up as it was time for her feed.
E 11am only took 110ml formula (normally she would have 180-200), but she ate a little carrot and apple puree too.
A for 15mins - just sitting with me quietly as i didn't want to make her OT.
S 11.30 went down easily - very tired. But was awake at 12!!
A  Out and about with me, running errands. In the pram, in and out of the car, in the supermarket etc.
S  14.15 just fell asleep as we got home from the shops in her car seat. I took her out of it and lay her in bed hoping she'd sleep longer.
E 15.00 awake, 150ml (normally 180-200).
A practised more rolling, watched a Baby Einstein movie (10 mins, then she got fed up!)  she was generally cranky and cried a lot, so I went for a walk with her. This is always her worst time of the day, and the walk always helps keep her calm and sometimes she has a short nap which means we can get to bed time without her getting OT.
S 17.15 (in the pram) 17.45 awake
A Daddy was home from work so lots of fun and cuddles, playing peek-a-boo etc.
18.45 Start bed time routine a bit early (normally it would be 19.00) because she was getting tired and cranky. She has 15mins playtime with no nappy on - playing in her playpen with a music mobile and lots of toys,
E 19.00 she had half of her last bottle (about 100ml) which also has some baby rice in it to help keep her full through the night.
A  19.15 bath time, 19.30 into her bedroom with dim lights and lullabies playing - massage. 19.45 the rest of her bottle (remaining 100ml, also with baby rice). Burp, a bit of sick, and into bed.
S 20.00 or just before. She whimpered a little but was asleep within a few minutes. I didn't go in to her as I knew she would settle.

Now what she had been doing up until recently was sleeping through until 7am the next day. We were doing a Dream Feed at 11pm until she was about 3.5 months, then we stopped it and she slept right through - never any problems. She was a sound sleeper - fantastic!

But now…..

So far this evening, she has woken up at 9pm, and just over 10pm. Grizzling, not really crying hard. Again, I left her and she settled herself back to sleep. Last night this happened also at 10pm but it was hysterical crying and i tried the shhhh pat for an hour with no luck. She hadn't eaten much that day so I gave her a 90ml bottle. She finally settled, but then 10mins later woke up again crying, but I left her and she settled herself after about 5 minutes.

She will also sometimes wake up around midnight, but always around 4.30/5am and she will stay awake for an hour, sometimes more. If we pick her up she screams even harder, so we normally leave her in her crib. What we always used to do to settle her was to let her suck on a little finger. She has gone through stages of taking a pacifier, then not wanting it, then taking it again. BUt i think it's been a good couple of months since she last took one. Sucking on a finger would be the only thing that would calm her down, but it's an AWFUL prop!! Meaning that sometimes i would stand over her cot for 15mins or more letting her suckle until she's almost asleep…… back ache!!

So we decided that we're going to break that habit too because with all the wakings and crying it was just unbearable to be letting her suck on our fingers all the time. We used to not really have to do it very often, which was why we didn't really think it was a big deal. But for the last few weeks we have to do it constantly! She also has two little sharp teeth and she quite likes to chomp down on your finger whilst sucking it which is very painful! So we decided she has to learn to settle without a prop. For the past 2 days we have not being giver her our fingers. Instead we just do shhhh pat. But it has varying degrees of success, but it's very early days so we will persevere.

My problem here is that we cannot ask our child minder to sit with her shhhing and patting while she has two 2 year olds, and a 3 year old to deal with! She just puts her in bed and leaves her to cry. If she's still crying after 20 minutes she gets her back up out of bed. I don't like this, but here's nothing I can do about it. I sat with my LO for over 1 hour trying to get her sleep today…. It's too much to ask of someone with 3 toddlers to look after. A couple of times she told me she left her for an hour crying by herself - I was very upset and angry about this and have asked her to limit it to 20 mins.

Here is a typical day with the child minder:

7.30 we drop her off
A but not sure what exactly
S she drops her kids off at school - lilly normally sleeps in the pram. Not sure for how long… around 20/30 mins i think.
E 10.30 180ml
A not sure what - playpen i think.
S 11am until 14.00!!!!!
E 180ml and some pureed fruit
A in the playpen
16.30 until 17 tried to get her to sleep but she wouldn't
A back in the playpen - happy, smily.
18.00 180ml and she fell asleep whilst drinking
18.30 i pick her up. She stayed asleep until 18.45
Then bed time ritual as normal.
She was awake from 4.30 until 6 that night. Gave her a small bottle in the end then she slept until 8.

LO used to sleep fully swaddled, but we had just started to wean her off the swaddle about a week before the problems started, and it was going quite well. But when she started waking up so much I began swaddling her again thinking that might help. But it didn't help. She just seemed to be even more frustrated when she was awake that she couldn't mover her arms! So for the past 4 nights we have been putting her in her day-time sleeping bag instead.

She also sleeps with two cuddlies, and she loves to bring them up to her face and nuzzle into them when she's going to sleep. This is another reason I thought she might be better out of the swaddle at night, so she can comfort herself the same way she does for day time naps.

I feel like I have written the biggest essay ever, but I have answered all the questions in your 'please read before posting' post.

I guess I would just like some advice on how to get her back into the sleeping pattern she had before. She used to sleep so soundly that with the dream feed she would literally still be asleep - eyes closed and everything! The second she finished the bottle I'd lay her back in bed and she would instantly be asleep again.

Do you think it's because she is getting used to the child minder and we just have to give her more time to adjust? Do you think I need to be more strict with the child minder about when and how long she sleeps during the day?

Do you think there could be another reason she's waking up all the time?

Is it too much for her that we have stopped swaddling AND stopped letting her suckle on our fingers? Should we try one at a time, or is it best to just get it all over and done with in one hit?!

Are we doing the right thing with shhhh pat? I read about pick up put down, but because she screams so much harder a lot of the time when we pick her up I don't think that;'s a very good option for us!??

Sorry again it's so long… I hope someone out there managed to read it all and can help us!!




Offline becj86

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Re: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 22:48:34 pm »
Hi, there's plenty of info there.

Most importantly, she's spirited. She will therefore probably be incredibly overstimulated at the childminder's place and a lot of the wakings you had initially were probably related to overstimulation. Now, they're probably from overtiredness.

I think the worst thing about the CM is leaving her to cry. Can you APOP her to sleep for her naps so she's not crying unattended? CIO is dangerous and something we at BW are totally against.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=233347.0

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Offline Erin M

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Re: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 23:07:42 pm »
Hi hun.  Just reading through, I'd say that it's a lot of getting used to new surroundings at daycare -- and possible needing a somewhat different routine.  Change is hard on babies, it takes some time for them to get used to something new.

Is it too much for her that we have stopped swaddling AND stopped letting her suckle on our fingers? Should we try one at a time, or is it best to just get it all over and done with in one hit?!
It's ok to do both, but she's going to need a lot of help to lose those props.  If she's used them for sleeps prior to now, it's really hard for her to get used to not having them and will need your help settling.  You can do sh/pat, and pick her up if she gets really upset.  Rereading your post, I think you're good without the swaddle.  I don't think that's contributing to your sleeping problems.

Do you think it's because she is getting used to the child minder and we just have to give her more time to adjust?
This is definitely part of it.  Like Bec said, she's spirited and probably intensely interested in her surroundings.  My LOs are more textbook and neither of them slept well at daycare at all. 

Is rolling over a new skill for her?  If so, that can also impact sleep (and it should also be mentioned that you shouldn't swaddle once your LO can roll over, so another reason to discontinue the swaddling).  Giving her lots of practice time during the day will help with that.  Is she always playing in the playpen at the child minder's?  She might need some time to roll around outside of the playpen too. 

The day where she was home with you, I'd say that she had too many short naps and was probably OT -- I'm thinking that she was during the day you listed -- If she didn't wake at 9, how long of a nap would she take?  What would be her A time after that and what would her nap after that look like?

At the CM's -- does she normally take a nap that close to BT?  That would not do good things to our nighttime sleep when my LOs were babies.  You do want to have some sort of A time after that nap -- a shortened A time, but A time nonetheless.  The CIO at the childminder's doesn't sit well with me either.  Not sure what you can do about it. 

What do you think about the possibility that she's teething?  Have you tried meds before bed to see if they make any difference?

Offline becj86

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Re: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 03:41:38 am »
Daddy was home from work so lots of fun and cuddles, playing peek-a-boo etc.
This was a massive issue for us too - DS was just so excited to have DH home, that any exciting play was too much for him. We made the BT routine longer (bath with Daddy for 30-45mins instead of 15mins with Mummy) - basically made everything fun and DH-involved but productive towards getting DS to bed.

PUPD is a last-resort sleep training method and should only be used when LO is in a suitable routine, which your DD is not. Its often not successful with spirited babies, as it is too stimulating for them and the idea is to get them to sleep.

My spirited DS took 5 months to sleep 'properly' at daycare. I say this so that you know your DD is not the only one, and don't expect things to change particularly soon. Back to the CIO napping style at the child minder - is there any way that she just sleeps - a swing or in the pram walking or something that the child minder can do so LO gets the sleep she needs without the CIO and maybe at slightly better times. Does the CM have a routine/schedule so we can try to suggest a routine that might work for LO around what CM is doing with the other children?

How recently did you start baby rice in her milk? Just wondering, as it can be difficult for little tummies to digest and can cause discomfort and sometimes even constipation, particularly in BF babies who are not used to food fortified with iron.

Offline natalie.vd.rijt

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Re: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2012, 08:03:25 am »
Thanks so much for your replies and advice :-)

PUPD is not a good solution for our LO I dont think. I have tried picking her up a few times when she's been crying and she tends to then cry twice as hard, and makes her body all ridged and turns her head away from me!

To answer a few questions...

She's been having the baby rice for about 6 weeks and had no problems with it in the beginning, so I dont think that is affecting her.

She can't roll over by herself yet, but we are training her, so I dont think that would be contributing to the lack of sleep?

Not sure what APOP means?! Sorry - not very up with the lingo!! I hate that the CM leaves her to cry, but I can't ask her to sit with her as I said before. The trouble is that with 2x 2 year olds running around she can't sleep if she's downstairs with them either, so the CM always takes her upstairs to her dark bedroom where she has a crib. This is similar to her environment at home and she has never been a good sleeper if it's noisy. Which leaves me a bit stumped at what to do! Any suggestions?

LO is always shoving her hands in her mouth when she's crying and trying to get to sleep, so maybe she will figure out how to suck her own thumb or fingers and that will help her settle. But is it bad to encourage her to suck her thumb??!! I know I was stuck with the habbit until I was 12!

The day I listed the EASY that she had with me I agree that she was OT - this often happens! Especially when Daddy looks after her as he tends to do a lot of physical play time with her which she loves, she laughs and squeals in delight, but it tires her out. He also lets her watch more TV than I do... but I dont really like to critisize, and it does keep her happy for 15 mins if she is grizzling. The thing is, that before she went to the CM she would have the same days with us where she wouldnt sleep enough and get OT, but she would still always sleep through the night. Only since going to the CM has it changed :-(

The CM, as far as I know, doesn't really stick to a routine with the other kids. The big difference I notice is that when at home LO quickly gets tired in the morning - normally after 1.5hrs she's ready for a nap. Her morning nap will then be a long one - normally around 2 hours (if I dont accidentally wake her up!!). Then she will have a further 2 naps of around 30/45mins. But with the CM she has a very short morning nap (20-30mins) in the pram while she walks the 2 older kids to school, but then around 11 she will often sleep for 3 hours! Yesterday she slept from 11-13, then 15-17. We put her in bed later than normal at 20.30 and last night she actually slept really well - only waking at 5.30 for a little cry, then back to sleep until 6.45 - I was overjoyed!!!! Maybe 2x 2 hour naps is right for LO? Her night sleep is normally from 8pm until 7am btw.

Do you think I should ask the CM for her routine with the kids so I can try to work out a routine that LO can fit into there and at home?

Thanks so much again for your advice! Also because you also have a Spiritd baby, it's really helpful! The only friends I have with babies all seem to have angel or textbook LOs so they are stumped when i tell them about our issues!! Not fair! ;-)

Offline becj86

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Re: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2012, 08:47:47 am »
The day I listed the EASY that she had with me I agree that she was OT - this often happens! Especially when Daddy looks after her as he tends to do a lot of physical play time with her which she loves, she laughs and squeals in delight, but it tires her out. He also lets her watch more TV than I do... but I dont really like to critisize, and it does keep her happy for 15 mins if she is grizzling.
This is more likely overstimulated than overtired (though of course OT is probably part of it). Spirited babies are really really easily overstimulated and it affects their sleep. DS got 'over happy' when he was OS or OT and that's generally what the raucous laughter, squealing, etc. is. Its ok, in small doses and with plenty of quiet winding down time after it before a nap, but otherwise it can affect their naps a lot - short naps that aren't even as restful as OT short naps.

APOP is accidental parenting on purpose - its for those occasions that sleep training is not practical and LO needs sleep. So, if she sleeps better in a swing or in a baby carrier (if CM is happy to wear her ??? ) then do that, by all means, if necessary. At this age, she should be having A times of around 2.5hr or so and 2 x 1.5-2hr naps with a catnap though the CN can sometimes be dropped if the two naps are two hours long -watch for OT though if you do that. So, I'm thinking that the catnap would fit best in the morning when she drops her other kids to school and then she would ideally have two naps a bit like what she had today.

Your issues started at quite a normal time for a sleep regression too - 4 months is around the time when sleep cycles become more pronounced, and LO has to learn how to get through the transitionary light sleep stages to have a long nap. She obviously can do that if she can sleep 3hr (that's probably when the other kids are all napping too ;) )

To discourage those wakings in the early part of the morning, you may need to push that first A time a bit longer, especially at home when she's having such a long nap after a 1.5hr A time - she is probably tacking that nap onto her night sleep when its not been so flash...

Offline natalie.vd.rijt

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Re: Used to sleep soundly, now waking up often in the night!
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 19:16:48 pm »
OK, thanks for the tips. I'll try that with lengthening the first A time of the day, but I always find it hard to keep her up when she's rubbing here eyes and yawning constantly! In any case it's good to know that it's normal for her to go through a rough patch at this age.

I've tried using a sling before and LO hated it!! And I don't think the CM would be up for it either tbh.

Our LO seems to thrive on being stimulated which confuses me a bit. She always has to be entertained and is never happy to be left in one place, or doing one thing, or being with one person... it's very tiring! She wants to be sitting up, looking at different people, touching things etc. She will only ever happiliy sit quietly with me when she's VERY tired, otherwise she gets twitchy and whingy.

But maybe we are over stimulating her?

We have always struggled to get her into a routine because almost every day with her is different. I tried to find patterns in her naps etc, but they have always been really erratic, with the only (mostly) consistent one being the morning nap. IN the end (after about a month of tyring to regulate her routine) I gave up. It was driving me crazy that I could never get her to follow even roughly the same pattern regarding when and how long she would sleep during the day. My saving grace was always that no matter what happened during the day, she would sleep through the night so I kind of thought myself lucky!

Today she had a 1.5 hr sleep at 9.15, then was awake from 10.45 until 14.45! But she didnt cry or anything - she was very happy and smiley. Although she wasn't showing signs of tiredness, I put her in her buggy around 13.30 so that she could fall asleep, but she just sat there chewing on a toy quietly watching us as we had some drinks outside.

Oh well, I'll see how it goes... thanks again for your help. I'lll et you know how we get on!
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