Breaking OT cycle - 8mos

[Jessleigh]

So my 8.5 month old DD is yet again in an OT cycle (very prone to these despite my vigilent attempts at making sure A times are always appropriate) and I'm not sure how to help. She is doing 3hrs A time after good nap but lately has been doing 30min naps and therefore needs 3naps during the day.

I found this: "Address this problem by keeping activity time short, closely observing non verbal behaviour for tiredness cues then acting immediately. Ensure they get correct amount of day time naps."

But then the problem is she'll want to take her first nap after only 2hrs of A time.
Since now she's been waking at 5:40 due to OT that would mean her first nap at around 8! Then it seems it would only encourage EW's.

Is there any stickie or info on advice for breaking OT cycles or is it just depending on each baby and situation?

[ZacsMumme]

Hun i think it looks like she is actually in an UT/OT loop, so the first A is too short, resulting in short nap. Then next nap is possibly OT, from short naps, then OT by BT causing EW.

Few things you can try...
1) can you AP a longer nap ie resettle? Typically it's easier to resettle if LO is OT rather than UT
2) That first nap needs to be later, it's totally encouraging the EW...at 8.5 months she should be able to do at least 3 hrs, even if tired from night before. The tired signs are likely habit.
3) what is her personality? If angel/textbook I think you may need to do an A jump to I've the day, if touchy/spirited maybe a more gradual increase.

What do you think? X

[Jessleigh]

Yes, i've been keeping the 3hr A time in the am despite her wanting to go to bed sooner. Even still i get a 30min nap that i can't resettle, even though she's clearly tired and unhappy.

She's spirited/touchy so we've always had a tough time with sleep (although we had a glorious 2 months of her STTNing at 5months old - thanks to PUPD)...vacationing ruined that one...

I was on the NW's board bc she was waking for 2hrs at a time in the first half of her night sleep. Luckily that ended once i did more PUPD to end the APing i had done while on vacation. But then it's switched to EW's.

Yesterday i finally got an 1.5 hr nap and hoped that would lead to a better night but she was up at 1, 3:30, 4:30, then up at 5:30 for the day again. I tried keeping her in her crib as she looked tired still but 30mins later i got her up.

Yesterday looked like this:

WU - 5:45
A - 3hrs 5mins
S - 8:50-9:20 (30mins...tried to resettle in crib...acting OT)
A - 2hrs (she was so miserably tired that i thought i'd just give putting her down super early a try since stretching her hadn't been working
S - 1:20-12:55!! (1.5hrs!)
A - 3hrs
S - 4-4:30 (30mins)
A - 2hrs 45mins
BT - 7:15 (i put her to bed at 6:55 but it took her 20mins of hyper flopping around and fussing til she finally settled)

She's been super hyper at BT lately even though i try to keep activity low key close to sleep. It started when i changed the nipple flow on the bottle she drinks from at BT (i pump and give her a bottle at night but nurse the rest of the day). I changed it to a faster flow so she would drink without falling too much into sleep before i put her down.

Therefore she's crazy hyper (OT??) at BT.

Maybe i do just need to stretch the first A time to 3hrs 15 despite her fussiness and see if it's easier to resettle.

....

[ZacsMumme]

Wonderful you got a good second nap. Given she did a long one after 2 hrs A (following a 30 min nap) I would say her A to BT after the CN was too long.

So after a 30 min nap her A needs to be approx 2 hrs.

I really think You need to get rid of the CN and the only way to do it is push through those A times :-/
What about working on that first A and if you get the short nap try to resettle. If you can't do a 2 hr A to the next nap and hopefully you will get a good second nap.

What do you think? X

[Jessleigh]

So after a 30 min nap her A needs to be approx 2 hrs.

i was wondering though if this was just a one time thing bc of how tired she was bc 2hrs after a shrot nap seems like such a short amount of A for her age...i really don't know

Yesterday was better! She woke at 5:35 (boo ) but i did 3hrs 20mins A time and got 1.5 hr nap! so you were right on needing the push.

WU - 5:35
A - 2hrs 25mins
S- 9-10:25 (1hr 25mins! )
A - 3hrs
S - 1:30-2:30 (1hr nap)
A - 1.5hrs (she was still acting really tired so i took her for a walk and she took a catnap from 4-4:30)
S - 4-4:30
BT - 7

She went to bed MUCH better this time! No crying and was out in 10mins

I know i need to do away with the CN but i really am not brave enough to put her to bed at 5!

She woke at 2:30am and i thought i'd try to resettle without feeding. When i went in she protested at first but then just lay there staring. 30mins later she was calling for me again...and then then on and off crying ensued. As it was approaching 4am and still no sleep i decided to give her a light feed even though i know this is not the BW way...just couldn't keep going wondering if she was hungry.
She slept til 6:45.

Then my problem today was knowing how much A time to give seeing as though she had a tougher night. I went with 3 hrs...i really dont think she could have lasted much longer bc she was so miserably tired. Just put her down so we'll see.
THoughts on that?

I think i need to ween those night feeds with GW instead...thoughts?

Thanks !

[Jessleigh]

well...got an hour out of her...maybe should have pushed the A? So hard to know what to do sometimes! Hoping nap #2 will be better.

[ZacsMumme]

At 10 months when Z did the 2-1 hewould manage 2 hrs to BT after a 30 min CN so it could be right. Remember her total A time on a 30 min nap only from WU is a lot of A KWIM?

Great ong the long nap after 3hrs20 A. I would try to stick with this A for 3-5 days and see how she goes. Even if you go with 3hrs15 on days your worried she can't quite make it soon enough you will drop the CN if you can get that A, and then the next A of 3hrs+ A established.

[Jessleigh]

At 10 months when Z did the 2-1 hewould manage 2 hrs to BT after a 30 min CN so it could be right. Remember her total A time on a 30 min nap only from WU is a lot of A KWIM?

o that makes total sense. Here i was worried about not even her enough A with a CN to BT but i think i was stretching her much too far and thus getting the super hyper OT mode at BT. Especially if it was a really bad day with all 30min naps!

I'll keep working on holding that first A at at least 3:15. thanks!

[ZacsMumme]

No prob, let me know how she goes

[Jessleigh]

well i put her down at 2hrs after CN but she babbled for 30mins...asleep at 7:20. She just gets SO hyper when OT. tossing her head back and forth, slamming her legs, banging her hand on the mattress...at least not too much crying.

I've been doing the 3hrs 15mins first A time for the last 4 days. For 3 days i got an hour nap. Today i got an 30min nap (no chance of resettling). Frustrating. Man, this girl is so touchy with sleep. Just wish i knew how to help her. Makes for a fussy baby and a mom who has to work extra hard to stay positive. Well...a least I'm growing in patience. Flexing that muscle every day!

Would you say i should continue with the 3hrs 15? Or increase to 3hrs 30?

Still getting an EW at 5:30/45. I guess it's not a technical EW since she usually get 10.5 hours night sleep but it's earlier than her usual. But she wakes up crying. She used to wake up and play/ babble in her crib happily for 30mins before calling out to us.

Months of this...no fun. I want my STTNer back!

[ZacsMumme]

Mmm tough to know if UT or OT can you post last 2 days easy?

[Jessleigh]

well unfortunately i didn't write down 2 days ago but i vaguely remember the nap length and A times:

A - 3:15
S - 1hr
A - 2hrs 30mins
S - 45mins (but it was OT i think bc she stirred at 30 and then was kind of in and out and then up at the 45)
A - 2hrs
S - 30min CN
A - 2hrs to BT but laying in crib for 20 before asleep

She only had ONE NW at 3 which was WONDERFUL! I thought i was in for a rough night due to short naps, but she surprised me.

Then yesterday:
WU - 5:50
A - 3hrs 15
S - 9:05-9:35 (couldn't resettle, was crying upon waking)
A - 2hrs 5mins
S - 10:40 - 1:30!! (1hr 50mins!!) I was SO happy about this one!
A - 2hrs 45mins (she was still yawning all afternoon despite long nap. Took her on a walk for a CN and she fell asleep much quicker than expected so A time was shorter)
S - 4:15-4:45 (i had to wake her as she was wanting to keep sleeping)
A - 2hrs
BT - 6:45 in crib, asleep at 7:05

NW - 12(i shhed her back down), 2(light feed but she was awake when i put her down...heard her again at 2:50...i don't think she has slept at all since putting her down. I shhed her to sleep.) again at 4am (I shhed her to stop crying and she just lay there staring, no sleep, called out for me again 45mins later, i was in and out of her room, shhing her when she cried, finally at 5:15 with still no sleep and DH gone i gave in and fed her back to sleep. She slept til 6:45.

I was so surprised we had such a horrible night after a great nap, but i guess the CN's hurt her in the end.
She goes down for naps and BT independently so i don't know why there NW's aren't getting sorted out. I'll probably make my way back to the NW board...i need a plan that i stick to.

Then this morning was HORRIBLE! I've NEVER had a hard time with settling her for the first nap, she almost never needs help at all bc she's so tired.
 
I pushed her to 3hrs15mins again. but she SCREAMED when i put her down and did not stop. My neighbor whom we share a wall with started banging on the wall so i picked her up and went for a stroll outside. Tried again 5mins later. Same thing. I couldn't risk my neighbor getting mad so i let her fall asleep in my arms. When i put her down she woke and cried but found her thumb and went to sleep.

Total A time was 3hrs 35mins. What the heck?! I KNOW she was tired. Had been yawning all morning, tired eyes, etc...no fun.

1hr nap with stirring at teh 20 and 30. Woke crying...i'm going a little nuts here.

[Jessleigh]

Not sure if i should be working on nights first, days or both? So tired of this!

[ZacsMumme]

I still think the first A is too short   1 hr naps are often UT and if she can do 2 hrs after a short nap and get a good one I think maybe she is fighting you due to UT....

It's hard to tell sometimes as her nap lengths are different on different days with same A times

The other thing you can try is a short first A, knowing you will get 45 mins or so (UT nap) then offer another nap 2.5-3 hrs later. Effectively following 2-3-4 A times which can work for some Los .... Or you could try fixed nap times to get hefty adjust? - temperament?

[Jessleigh]

It's hard to tell sometimes as her nap lengths are different on different days with same A times

Story of my life with this LO. Unpredictable as they come! She is spirited/touchy so I've been told fixed naps might be hard on her. But I've been tempted!

I think maybe she is fighting you due to UT....

Would this really be the case even though she shows tired signs after being up for only 2hours?

I've never thought of the 2-3-4 A time. Although i was curious bc some of the sample EASYs for 9mos looked like the first A was 3hrs and then the A time to BT was sometime 4hrs!

I do feel like she'd be happier if i put her down at 2hrs rather than stretching her. It's like she gets her second wind and is harder to settle.

She just did 2hrs 50 after a 1hr nap and got 35mins nap. I had tried to put her down earlier but she refused. *sigh*

Nights are a different issue. I've heard that nights sometimes need to get sorted first? What are your thoughts on this?

I need to stop some of my APing at night. A visit to the neighbor's first with some ear plugs and an explanation. Luckily they don't work, so they have no need to be mad about being kept up all night! haha!