15 mo, never sttn *update-she did it!!*

[C&B&E]

Apologies if I've missed this, but does she go to sleep truly independently? Does she go into her cot wide awake? Does she definitely know how to get herself to sleep without being fed?

She's not happy about it *at all* - but yes she can, and does.  But she will scream to be fed often when I am settling her if she is out of sorts/OT which is much of the time!).  We sometimes have easy bedtimes but often will take quite a bit of fussing/crying to get to sleep with me in the room (had on back if she is particularly unsettled) or shh-ing from outside.

She is *massively* OT but we are struggling to tackle it with such terrible nights and shocking naps  .  She has just woken up and screamed for 35 minutes - what sort of cry do you think this is??  she desperately wanted me to feed her  but I just know it's making things worse if I feed her early on in the night.  I just don't know if she's in discomfort or *just* wanting to be fed to sleep  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndbJRK05408&feature=youtu.be

Sorry for such a rambled post - I've had 3-4 hours sleep for the past week again and I'm at my wits end with it 

Oh, and no she doesn't take a bottle - I can't express and she refuses the dairy free formula (she's MSPI)

Thanks ladies

[Truly Blessed]

Oh Honey, that cry breaks my heart let alone yours and DH. I have only heard Sam cry like this once and he had a chronic ear infection, but let's see what other's say. At the time he literally would not sleep at all unless he passed out with exhaustion, I walked the streets in the MOTN with him in the PC,  so if she can be settled, then maybe she is just protesting  . It's desperately hard when you know/think a BF would stop the crying, but FWIW I honestly think it has to stop to give her the very best chance of becoming rested. Big (Hug) for you for being so strong Sweetie.

(Hugs)

x.

[anna*]

Oh sweetie. I think you have to get her checked out (her ears I'm thinking) just so you know feel reassured in yourself that she's not in pain. Although if she was in discomfort, it doesn't make sense that she would settle easily with a BF? That's what makes me wonder if this is an independent sleep issue.

If you decide that this is about independent sleep I think my plan would be to be 100% strict about BF to sleep. I would BF before naps and at bedtime BUT: at nap I would BF downstairs 15 mins before starting wind-down. That way if she kicks off asking to be fed you know she's not hungry (like, if she hasn't eaten well at lunch) and she's had the cuddle time too. Likewise at bedtime I'd introduce something between end of BF and bedtime. Like, brush her teeth, or do a story, or BF her in just her babygrow and put her in her sleep sack after BF. So she's properly awake.

Can you talk to her about it at the start of wind-down .Real simple language but something like "you're going to go to sleep now. Mummy will stay with you in your room but it's time to sleep." So she knows what's expected. I wouldn't shush or touch her, I'd just sit next to the cot and say "You have to lie down E, it's time to sleep, mummy is here." Matter of fact. Does she have a lovey? I know it's late in the day but could you persuade her to take a dummy? If BF is comforting to her, maybe a dummy and the sucking action would fulfil the same need? Audrey gets a right head of steam on very quickly if she wakes up fully and I feel like it helps me to be able to tell her what to do. "Aud, grab your lovey. Find your dummy. Thaaat's right now lie down please. No, no fuss, no crying, it's sleep time now." I find that if I shush, she can just tune me out and screams so loud she can't hear me but if I talk to her (quite a loud, firm voice, not stern, but not whispering, yk) she sort of has to pause even just a tiny bit to listen to me. The good thing about talking to her rather than shushing or touching her means I can do it from right the other side of the bedroom if needs be.

Also with the signing, can you teach her the sign for 'hurt'? WHERE and HURT are so useful, if you can ask her, then perhaps she could show you where/if it hurts?

I'm so sorry you're all having such a rough time

[becj86]

L screams like this and for hours on end, so that's why I haven't got the strength to drop the NF. I cannot convince myself that he is not in pain. Last time we tried, I was in tears thinking I'd missing reflux for over a year because I thought I could hear him fluxing but for me, there is just enough doubt, yk? He STTN from 5-6 months til 11.5  then started waking again when he had a language explosion

Honestly, he has STTN a few times recently and its been when he's not OT. I'm hanging onto the hope that once he's better rested, he will STTN again.

Does she settle eventually with pain meds? I just wonder, because BM has an analgesic component and it kicks in faster than meds so its still my go-to when teething/sick.

HUGS! This is not easy

[*jazzberry*]

Dd sounds like this when she gets past it and just can't wind down to the point where i think she has forgotten why she was initially crying. She also sounds like this when she's ill. So many (((((hugs)))))

[C&B&E]

Thanks so much for your replies 

I think you have to get her checked out (her ears I'm thinking) just so you know feel reassured in yourself that she's not in pain. Although if she was in discomfort, it doesn't make sense that she would settle easily with a BF? That's what makes me wonder if this is an independent sleep issue.

If you decide that this is about independent sleep I think my plan would be to be 100% strict about BF to sleep. I would BF before naps and at bedtime BUT: at nap I would BF downstairs 15 mins before starting wind-down. That way if she kicks off asking to be fed you know she's not hungry (like, if she hasn't eaten well at lunch) and she's had the cuddle time too. Likewise at bedtime I'd introduce something between end of BF and bedtime. Like, brush her teeth, or do a story, or BF her in just her babygrow and put her in her sleep sack after BF. So she's properly awake.

Anna, thank you.  Your whole post really helped.  She had her ears checked several times and they are fine - so the only discomfort I am wary of is reflux issues - tricky to get her to sign (it's a less specific place than teeth iyswim) for that but I will start teaching her the pain sign and then a least I can ask her about it.  I know that with reflux pain milk does help to soothe it which is why I always question whether thats why she's so desperate for  feed  .   You are right - I am going to start creating a 15 min gap between feeds and sleep times.  I think I will do this for the next 5-6 days and still feed at night if she won't settle.  Then when I am sure she is 100% able to self settle then we can tackle in the night wakings as it will be more clear whether it's a prop or discomfort issue hopefully.   

No, she's not interested in a lovely or a dummy - and it really doesn't help matters  .  Ben always had a dummy when he was little, and is still massively attached to his Mr Rabbit and it still helps him to calm down.  Maybe I'll have another push at seeing if there's a soft toy she would like. 

She is SO very spirited - so it is definitely possible that the screaming could be protesting.  It was funny last night (well, kind of  ), she was screaming inconsolably and DH asked her is she wanted him to sing her a song and she immediately stopped screaming, politely said "No" and then carried on  ! 

[Truly Blessed]

She is SO very spirited - so it is definitely possible that the screaming could be protesting.  It was funny last night (well, kind of  ), she was screaming inconsolably and DH asked her is she wanted him to sing her a song and she immediately stopped screaming, politely said "No" and then carried on  !

LOL there's your answer, she's just a very strong willed but polite little girl 

x.

[Tiz_01]

I'm definately no expert but my first thought was a 'Protesting' or annoyed cry, like she is REALLY not happy that she has to go to bed! My DD very occasionally cries similar to this when she can't get her own way, fortunately its very rare now! Hugs to you all as whatever the reason its still heartbreaking to hear

[*Becky*]

HUgs Claire...to me she sounds really cross but I would def get her ears checked just to rule it out like pp's have suggested xxxxxxxxxx

[*Becky*]

how are things today?

[C&B&E]

Thanks Becky. 

Rough day, but I feel like we're making some slow progress  .  I've started BF her downstairs before naps, and then at bedtimes I feed her before doing teeth, books and sleeping bag.  Last night it took 45 minutes of screaming for her to settle, same for her nap today, but 20 minutes for bedtime and she was less frantic.  So we do definitely have a worse prop issue than I thought !  We'll do this for the next few days and then tackle the NWs.

[*Becky*]

so many vibes flying your way xxxxx

[anna*]

Many hugs, and vibes. My little girl has a good bit of spirit in her, and I was surprised when I figured out that I was a prop for her. I mean she was going in to her cot awake - but drowsy. The 'drowsy' was the key, she needed to do that part by herself in order to be able to settle herself at night. Of course, I'm not one to give advice really, she's still having a NF at 13 months old, but it's much, much better than it was, she sleeps well all night (no more 1-2hr NWs), and just wakes the once to feed.

20 mins at bedtime tonight sounds good. Fingers crossed it's the start of a positive trend. Angry, crying, screaming bedtimes are SO stressful for everyone, I really hope you both (all!) get some more peaceful evenings and nights very soon.

[C&B&E]

I mean she was going in to her cot awake - but drowsy. The 'drowsy' was the key, she needed to do that part by herself in order to be able to settle herself at night.

Yep, that's it exactly!  I can't believe I've not realised it sooner! 

She woke at 8.30pm (usual for her) and whereas usually it takes 20mins+ to settle her back she just made a few wimpering noises and went back to sleep on her own  .

[anna*]

That is a good, good sign!! I am going to have my fingers crossed all night so pleeeease come on in the morning and tell us how the night went?