10 month old EW

[ENMS]

My DS (10 months today!) is sick with a cold, but whenever he is sick, he usually sticks with the same A times as usual. Anything less and I get UT naps which means the whole day is off.

Now this week we've had 2 EW, which have both occurred after a late PM CN. But I'm not sure whether they are OT or UT

Here were the days:

Thursday

WU 5:30
S 9:05-10:30
S 12-12:45 (fell asleep in Jumperoo )
S 4:20-5:05 (APOP in the stroller)
BT 7 - fell asleep at 8:30. Not crying but fussing on and off, having lots of trouble settling
NF 12:45
WU 5:55 (so a 9.5h night)

Friday

WU 5:55
S 9:00-10:25
S 1:45-3:07
S 7:00
NF 2:45
WU 6:20 (so an 11.5h night)

Saturday

WU 6:20
S 10:05-1:10 (ok I know this was waaaay too long, I let him sleep bc he's sick but obviously I shouldn't have - he also took a good 30-35 mins to settle for this nap)
S 4:40-5:10 APOP in stroller
S 7:45 didn't really hear him fell asleep great
NF 3:50
WU 5:30 (so a 9:45 night)

Usually when he's OT we have evening wakings and wakings during naps at 35 mins - we've had none the 2 nights that ended up in EW. But at the same time, he hasn't had THAT much sleep to get him UT, especially since he's sick, kwim? Although I have to say his A times this wee seem to be much longer - he used to be on about 3h20-3h30 and he's had up to 3h45 with a great nap afterwards. Maybe he's just had an A time leap?

He's also having a hard time settling for naps and BT - not all the time, but maybe half the time. Hard to explain and to know whether UT or OT. Can take up to 30 mins for a nap or BT.  Again this morning he had a hard time settling (15-20 minutes) but slept for a full 1.5h after.

WDYT?

[Erin M]

My feeling on this one is UT -- that's just more based on my own personal experience though -- I'd get EWs with James when we did a nap too close to BT (so basically not enough A time before bed) -- even though he was exhausted and needed the nap, without the good long A time before bed, we got an annoying EW.  I'd have better luck with just doing a longer A time and an early BT (how does he handle OT -- with some babies, you might just have to do a super EBT until he catches up -- which based on that 3 hour nap, he needs to do!).

[ENMS]

Yeah it makes sense Erin.

In the past, EW were always OT but I guess we may see more and more of these UT EW now...

Yesterday he had a normal day and we didn't quite get an EW but it was still early wake up

[Erin M]

You also might have to look at capping one of your naps to shorten your day too -- 10 months is the point where a lot of babies hit the very earliest stages of the 2-1 --with 2 full naps, yor day starts I get very long (in your case on the early side of things) -- there's a sticky on the EASY FAQs I think (10-11 month sleep gone wonky...) -- I'll link later when not on my phone -- but it has some info about that.

[ENMS]

You also might have to look at capping one of your naps to shorten your day too

yeah absolutely - yesterday he did 2 x 1h30 naps but it fit only because he had gotten up so early... his day was 5h30-7h15 which I know it way too long.

thanks Erin I'll look at that sticky

[Erin M]

yeah absolutely - yesterday he did 2 x 1h30 naps but it fit only because he had gotten up so early... his day was 5h30-7h15 which I know it way too long.

Yeah, hard to figure out which comes first -- the long days due to the longer naps, or the longer naps because of the long days!

[ENMS]

the long days due to the longer naps, or the longer naps because of the long days!

in general, do you see the nights getting longer once you start capping the naps?

DS is having short nights still, although not technically EW, and I'm wondering if capping the naps would help that?

[Erin M]

It helps as long as you don't cap too far and end up OT
Generally one capped nap and one longer nap is where you would want to be at this point.  Sometimes the capped nap ends up super short (like 20-30 minutes), just enough to get the to the next nap without being OT

[ENMS]

Thanks Erin

[ENMS]

Ok so I'm not capping yet and today is going like this:

WU 5:30
Nap 9:00-10:25
Nap 2:00-3:25
BT will be around 7:30

So I do realize that the day is way too long. But if I do cap the AM nap, he will wake earlier from the PM nap and I will have to make BT earlier, and won't that just result in the same wake time? How do I modify his shedule so that his day becomes 6:30-7:30 - I'm scared if I cap the nap I will make it to 5:30-6:30

[becj86]

I've used EBT to fix OT EW's It worked because the EW shifted back so far into the night that I could get him back to sleep and knock the OT on the head with a really long night, yk?

I think in this case, it'd be a matter of capping (and maybe cap the PM nap so you're 'banking' a decent nap in the morning first...) and doing BT at say 6:30. The idea is that the sleep missing in the day then gets shifted to the night again. Then after a longer night, you can push the A times a bit to shift BT later in increments.

I do wonder if you've got some OT building up slowly from the long days though...

[ENMS]

Wake up at 5 AM today 

I didn't want to cap yet because he's having a cold but I guess I just really have to.  He also had an A time leap last week or the week before. Suddenly he just wouldn't go to sleep when I put him down for naps and BT, when I extended those A times it came back to normal.

So for today, you'd allow him to have a nice AM nap, and then cap his PM at how long? 30 minutes? more? The 10/11 month sleep gone wonky sticky suggests capping the AM nap, does it make a difference? I'm also not going to let him nap his AM nap until 9:30. Lately I've been doing the AM nap closer to 9-ish which may not be helping with the EW

He didn't seem OT yesterday, but I can see what you're saying, a 9.5h night is really short at his age, even despite 3h of nap time. Should I instead keep his naps as is but put BT earlier and see what happens? Or reduce all of his A times? I'm so confused

[becj86]

I'd take that first nap out to 9:30 trying to discourage the EW - good idea.

I personally would do the long nap in the morning - its peace of mind for you more than anything, and it doesn't really make a lot of difference til LO is refusing the PM nap which is when you'd cap the AM nap and let him sleep for the PM nap. Capping the PM nap also means you don't run the risk of having to cap both naps which is a surefire shortcut to OT-land.

I'd cap the PM nap at 45min and bring BT to 13hr after wakeup and see what happens. That's middle of the road rather than capping at 30min and doing BT 12hr after WU

[ENMS]

Thanks a lot!

So I aim now to get an 11h night, correct? DS has never really consistently slept longer than that at night - some nights were 11.5-12h, but they were the odd thing rather than the habit.

And once I do get an 11h night consistently, I start pushing back the day in 15 minute increments?

I don't have a problem doing the longer AM nap, I agree it's less stressful, but I was kinda scared that the long AM nap was going to prolong the EW thing, but I guess that so long as I push back the nap as late as possible it won't be an issue, correct?

[becj86]

So I aim now to get an 11h night, correct? DS has never really consistently slept longer than that at night - some nights were 11.5-12h, but they were the odd thing rather than the habit.

Yeah, I think after about 5 months its a bit much to expect 12hr. Nice if you can get it and happens in the transitions 3-2 and 2-1 more often but 11hr is a good night.

And once I do get an 11h night consistently, I start pushing back the day in 15 minute increments?

I think so, makes sense to get your routine to be what you want before its where you want so at least LO is getting the sleep he needs even if its not the ideal timing, yk?

I don't have a problem doing the longer AM nap, I agree it's less stressful, but I was kinda scared that the long AM nap was going to prolong the EW thing, but I guess that so long as I push back the nap as late as possible it won't be an issue, correct?

That is my reasoning. FWIW, that was the case with DS, provided that first A time was pushed as far as it could go, he didn't EW unless it was an OT EW which is much easier to resettle IME.

[Erin M]

Thanks Bec. 
ITA with the 11 hour night, was the only way to get a decent nap around this age, otherwise the night is too long. 

I think you're on the right track.

[ENMS]

I have looked back on my logs and realized that this whole EW business started out with 2 days of long AM nap and short PM CN.  Granted, the PM CN was probably too late in the day, but I think I may just try the short AM to see what happens.

If I do the long AM, do I let him sleep as long as he needs or do I wake at 1h30?

If I do the short AM, I'd aim for something like this:

WU 6
Nap 9:30-10:15
Nap 1:30-3:00
BT 7:00

Does that make sense? I was also thinking at not allowing the nap bf 9:30 even if he gets up earlier.

This morning he slept from 9:25 to 10:40.  Can 1h15 be OT, because it's impossible that it was UT with 4h25 of A time

[ENMS]

I didn't do too well

Woke him from his PM nap after 1h05. So today was

WU 5:00
Nap 9:25-10:40 (woke on his own)
Nap 2:00-3:05 (I woke him)
BT - I put down at 6:30, it's now 7 and he's still not asleep 

He's also sick with a cold although it's not really affecting him during the day - so maybe it's best to just suck it up for now and try to work on that later? But at the same time, a 9.5h night is surely not allowing him to get the rest he needs to get better either 

[Erin M]

Is the cold messing with his night sleep or not?  James has had more than his share of colds it seems, and for the most part he sleeps through it. 

Honestly at this point, I'd try to cap one of the naps as it doesn't seem as if you've got anything to lose by doing so. 

[ENMS]

I don't think the cold is messing with the night sleep, unless it's causing EW but I don't see why since he sleeps ok the rest of the night (except for his NF).

Ok I'll get to work on that tomorrow, FX it goes well!

[Erin M]

That's good.  Mine were generally able to sleep well through colds.  I'd say the only other thing is teeth -- always caused EWs here.

[ENMS]

I'd say the only other thing is teeth -- always caused EWs here

Usually when teeth are an issue, they will affect his naps - he's going to nap well only if medicated. Now he naps fine, without any meds. So I doubt this would be the issue although you never know, maybe it's the molars moving in or something so they bother him 'differently'.

I'll try capping the naps a few days and then see what happens.

[Erin M]

Sounds like a plan -- and unlikely to be teeth as well, if it's different than previous ones.  If anything, I find that molars have a bigger affect, not a lesser one. 

[ENMS]

Sorry one more question - he just woke up now so obviously he's OT bc I didn't get him to ned early enough tonight. Do I stick with the plan tomorrow or allow him full naps to recuperate from the OT?

[Erin M]

I'd stick with the plan -- because otherwise you're going to get stuck in this OT loop for the forseeable future. 

[ENMS]

I have good news to report

DS slept 12h last night! 1 NF at 4:30 (which is late for him) and then up at 7:15

New day new challenges LOL. Today the challenge is to get him to take a small CN this morning not too late and then get a nice long nap in the PM. I know the late AM, PM CN will not work, we've had EW with that.

[Erin M]

Yay!  Good luck!

[becj86]

Yay for a long night and a new day

FX for a good day and another good night!

[ENMS]

Success again!

45 AM nap, 1h20 PM nap, 11h30 night! He woke up at 6:45 this morning. Amazing how rested I feel after those 2 good nights

Thank you so much ladies for your help!

[Erin M]

Woohoo!!

[becj86]

Yay! Long may it continue. Hope he is recovering from that cold too.

[ENMS]

Ok so I am back...  We had about a week or so of nice, 11.5-12h night. Then slowly the nights went down to 11h, and now they're around 10h - some a bit more, some a bit less.

Is that normal at his age to be getting 10h nights? It doesn't sound like a lot of sleep at his age? Here's his typical routine:

Mon-Fri (daycare)

WU 5:30
Nap 9:30-10:00
Nap 1:00-3:00
BT 7:30

Sat-Sun

WU 5:30
Nap 10:00-10:45 (I wake him)
Nap 1:45-3:15
BT 7:30

Is he getting too much day sleep? It doesn't sound like too much to me Or could he have become OT? He has had days of 2 x 30 min naps, or days with a longer or shorter PM nap (from 1h to 2h45) with the same result.

At daycare he naturally sleeps 20-30 minutes in the morning. He is at a home daycare and he is the only one that takes a morning nap so although he is upstairs I'm assuming it's more noisy. In the PM everyone sleeps at the same time so he takes a longer nap then. At home I wake him from his AM nap to be able to fit in a PM nap although on Sunday I tried the opposite. He slept 1h15 in the AM and 45 min in the PM.

When it started I thought it was teeth (he was getting 3 at the same time) but he's been napping well and I tried pain meds at BT and his NF and no change.

Does anything sound off in his routine?

The switch to the new time this week-end went well, he quickly adjusted but just went back to his old waking up time of 5:30.

[becj86]

http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php/about-the-wonder-weeks/your-babys-10-leaps/mental-leap-7
This WW can reduce sleep needs temporarily...

Routine looks pretty sound, Elise. I'm not sure where you'd shorten the day - maybe bring the 2nd A time a little shorter?

[ENMS]

Thanks bec. I'm happy to know that the routine doesn't sound off, I guess I'll see if things get better within a week or do.

[Erin M]

Routine looks pretty sound, Elise.

I was thinking the same thing.  Definitely could be the WW, 10 hours is definitely on the low side -- 11 is fine, 10 is a bit short, but maybe when the WW is done it will even out.

[ENMS]

Thanks Erin

He's a bit old for the WW though- can they come late? He's actually 48 weeks now.

So yesterday he slept 1h in the AM, then I had him home in the PM and let him sleep 1h40. Kept a slightly shorter A to bed of 3h30 (bc of the long AM nap his whole day was later than usual).

He woke at 5:30, I fed him and put him back (which I always do, it used to work now it usually doesn't) and he slept until 7:40 - a 12h night!

It's like we don't have regular, 11h nights. They're either 12h or 10h  I feel like he's constantly catching up, yk?

I was thinking maybe daycare is more tiring for him than being at home. I can't do much about his naps there but maybe on the week-end I should let him sleep longer? Not sure how that would fit in the day though, but I could try.

WDYT?

Is this 2-1 starting? Like today getting up at 7:40 there's no way he's doing 2 naps - it'll be a one nap day and hopefully it's a long one! 

[becj86]

He's a bit old for the WW though- can they come late? He's actually 48 weeks now.

Yeah, they can come a little late or a little early. Its meant to be based on gestational age rather than birth age which gives some variation and some babies just do develop a little either side of the norm too.

Yeah, he is at that age for the start of the 2-1

I can vouch for daycare being more tiring (more stimulating...) than home on weekends - DS needs the weekends to catch up for the next week.

[ENMS]

ok good to know, thanks bec.

I may try to let him nap longer on the week-end and then see if that helps.