3 month old - are NW's ever from hunger if your LO wakes up 'gently'?

[becj86]

S 16.40 - tried to get a CN here.  Screaming/crying - couldn't settle.

OT? Thinking he shouldn't be doing 1.5hr on a 40min nap (did you cap it?) Its odd with such a long A time first up, I have to keep reminding myself of his age I wonder if you just set that PM catnap at 4 and see if you can get him used to school run, snack with big bro, nap...

WU 7
S 11/11.30 - 13/13.30
School pick up 15.10 - 15.30
S 15.30 for about an hour?
S 19.00

I'd try 1.5hr nap at 15:30 for a 2hr A to BT personally. I always had a really short A to BT with the long first A.

[lynners]

I have to keep reminding myself of his age

I know what you mean and his my baby!!

OT? Thinking he shouldn't be doing 1.5hr on a 40min nap (did you cap it?)

I think you're right.  I thought that 1.5 hour was a much reduced A, as I normally do 2h 10 after a 40min nap if the first nap ends up 40 min, but yes it looks like I should have even less A if it's the second nap that's 40 min.  I didn't cap it but he woke up when I pushed the buggy out to school. So a 30-40min nap ending at about 3.15 when we go to school is quite common.

I wonder if you just set that PM catnap at 4 and see if you can get him used to school run, snack with big bro, nap...

If the nap finished at 3.15, might be a bit crazy to put him down at 4 but maybe worth a shot - he def won't be OT at that point!  ...and he can't make it to 6.00 without a CN.

I'd try 1.5hr nap at 15:30 for a 2hr A to BT personally. I always had a really short A to BT with the long first A.

I've been finding the A to BT difficult to gauge but I think you're right a short A is the way forward where possible.

Can I ask advice on today please.  This is what we had (dropping the E's and A's during the day)

S 18.40
DF 10.00
NW 2.00 frustrated whine for 15 mins but definitely mantra not 'I need you'.  Self-settled.
WU 7.00 (woke him up)
S 10.55 - 12.25 (woke up crying though)
S 14.30 - 16.40 (woke him up. worried any longer would affect night sleep?)
BT ?? Left wondering whether better to have BT at 7 to keep a 7 - 7 day which is my ideal or to aim for 6.30 in case gets OT (or should I have left him to sleep for longer?). As I finally got him to sleep to 7 am again, don't want to end up with EW's again.

[becj86]

WU 7.00 (woke him up)
S 10.55 - 12.25 (woke up crying though)

I'd dial this A back a touch (5-10min or so) if you wake him in the morning - its just not the same as waking up himself, yk? Still a reasonable nap but maybe a little OT?

Good second nap Best to wake at that point or you could end up robbing night sleep. I'd be prepared to do BT at 6:30/6:45 just to be on the safe side, TBH but he may make it to 7 ok given he's had a good solid 2hr nap. I don't think you can fit another CN in there to make BT later without making it too late and lengthening the day too far.

[lynners]

Thank you.

Makes sense to roll back the A a bit if we wake him up in the morning.  Good point.

Yesterday we ended up having this post-afternoon nap -

S 14.30 - 16.40
BT 19.00 (Had guest arrive who hadn't met LO yet so BT a little later.  LO seemed ok getting to 19.00 but we did end up with a 6.25 EW.  Do you think that could be because he was a little OT and we should have put him to be 18.30/18.45?

TBH I don't really mind an EW like that.  It's just that I don't hear him when he wakes up so I'm currently setting the alarm at 6.00 am so I can be awake and catch his WU time - seems a little crazy.  If he was consisently waking at 7 ish I wouldn't have to bother. DH thinks I'm insane waking up early so I can know when LO wakes up. 

[lynners]

Sorry I also meant to mention on my previous post that after our first A today of 4 h 10 (put him down at 3h 50, went calmly to sleep in 20 minutes), he had a nap of 1h 40m and woke happy.  However when we went out 30 minutes later he started falling asleep in the buggy straight away (got him out!)  This only seems to happen when he needs more sleep so I think the 1h 40m wasn't a full nap.  Maybe UT when went to sleep?  Really not sure.  Might need to look at upping the A again?

Falling asleep in the buggy does seems to happen a lot after he has a nap under 2 hours. This makes getting out of the house after his nap difficult/less appealing with his second A getting messed up.

[lynners]

So sorry ... 3rd post - update because we have had a bad NW at 21.00.  DH is currently trying to shush him.  Been going for 1/2 hour.  Definitely has got worse since he went in there.    Were debating whether cry bad enough to go in.  Maybe made the wrong decision.  ) Does this look like an OT day to you?

BT 19.00
DF 10.00
WU 6.26
S 10.35 - 12.15
S 14.15 - 16.25
S 19.00 (was in bed 18.35 but took a while to settle.  Rolled on to tummy and back again.  Only just started rolling.
NW 21.00

Now been trying to settle 3/4 hour.  Not great.

[Erin M]

Only just started rolling.

^^^^that could be part of it too.  Developmental stuff messes with sleep. 

As for your day, with the 1.40 nap being a shorter one for him, I almost wonder if you needed to cut that second A time even more???  Though that doesn't seem right to me with that big long nap that you got.  My guess would be that the third A time would be the culprit.  I'm feeling with him that while his first A time is totally off the charts high for his age, his other two need to be right there with another baby his age???  Could also be that the rolling kept him from falling asleep when he should have and he was just very OT by the time he finally did fall asleep.  I'm not sure about the EW the other night, but I'd say that your NW (that I hope settled soon after you posted) was OT. 

[lynners]

Hi Erin,

I think you're right about the rolling.  He seems to be trying to discover if he's a tummy sleeper which is taking time.

This was our day today -

WU - 6.50
S - 10.50 - 12.30 (Slept on tummy)
S - 2.25 - 3.05 (He woke up at this point.  Was in his buggy and I was upstairs so didn't hear him straight away.  He was a bit upset when I heard him.  Not sure if he woke OT, or UT then got frustrated being left in buggy  )
S 4.45 - 5.30 (Followed Bec's suggestion of putting LO to bed at 4.00 for CN as always struggles after this.  He ended up taking 45 mins to settle as getting used to being on tummy, but managed to do so calmly)  Think I will stick to 4.00 as latest time for CN.
BT 7.15 (Took 15 mins to settle - calm.  Thinking I'll try to keep last A to between 1 1/2 - 2 hours following your comment.  What do you think?)

 

[lynners]

Just had a tiny NW at 20.50.  Literally went back to sleep in 30 seconds but assume we're still dealing with OT?

[Erin M]

Literally went back to sleep in 30 seconds but assume we're still dealing with OT?

I'd say probably yes with your day being a little bit all over the place.  You also have to think that his A times might come back a little bit if he's moving more too.  Or maybe not at all, he's certainly a unique little guy in the sleep needs department.

[lynners]

he's certainly a unique little guy in the sleep needs department.

...yep he sure is!  I'm feeling guilty taking up so much of your time but he really is pretty tricky to get a handle on.  I appreciate your help so much 

I think we'll just have to get through the next few days with his new 'rolling game'.  Definitely developmental stuff going on so a bit all over the shop.

Took 1/2 hour to settle when put down for 1st nap today making the A 4 1/2 hours  .  (We'll see how that goes)  Think he's getting used to becoming a tummy sleeper - not distressed though luckily!   

[Erin M]

I think we'll just have to get through the next few days with his new 'rolling game'.  Definitely developmental stuff going on so a bit all over the shop.

This is the truth! 

You're doing fabulously well, you know -- I feel like we just chat through things a little -- with his needs being so unique it's like you need to talk things through a little.

[lynners]

Well I appreciate the chatting thanks Erin.

I was just reading on another post about set naps and that they really only work for a textbook/angel baby which Alec is.  I was wondering whether, post this rolling-excitement, it's something that might work for us?  I was trying to find more info on the forum but without the search button working I'm not sure where to look.

I'm not sure with Alec's ever-increasing first A whether this would work but certainly as we have set school runs to work around, it would be great if it would work.

[Erin M]

Set naps do work really well for some kids.  I think Weissbluth (who is another sleep guy -- he's done some interesting research about sleep cycles, etc but is also pro-CIO, just so you know if you go looking) is a big proponent of them.  The idea basically being that you put them down for a nap at the same exact time every day -- their bodies get used to sleeping at that time and they will be able to sleep at that time even if the A time is a little bit off.  Might work well for you (especially with school runs), some babies do better with it than others (but if you think about it, most toddlers are more set nap kids than A time kids -- I can still tell you that dd1 went down for her nap every day at 1 PM).   

[lynners]

Yes I hadn't really though about the fact that once bubbas are on 1 nap it tends to be at a set time.  DS1 went down at 1pm every day too.  I suppose I just thought that it was because they are on one nap for so long that it's fine to have a set time before they lose it completely.

I suppose though that as Alec would be on two naps, in theory if we set them he should be like that until about one year old (although his first A is now about 4h20/25  , which is dangerously close to 1 nap territory - at least he can't keep that A time up after.  Completely bonkers.  )

I still think I should wait a while for the rolling to settle down, and also this weekend we are going to go cold turkey to get him on the bottle which will completely throw things (Not looking forward to it but we have been trying so many gentler ways with no luck.  Had to do the same with DS1 when he was little too. Feel mean but at least Tracy did advocate this route which definitely makes me feel better...and it did work with DS1  )

...anyway after all that maybe I should look at setting his naps something like this -

WU b/n 6.15 and 7.00 (would always wake up by 7)
Nap 1 11.15/11.30
Nap 2 15.30 (after school run)
BT 19.00

Quite scary though as worst case scenario as the first A time could potentially be 5 h 15m or 5h 30!  He just seems to be able to handle so much then that I'd really have to push that out as much as poss to protect that second A because that is definitely when he gets OT and is a lot more sensitive.

Yesterday I put him down at 2h10 rather than the normal 2h for his second nap and it was a complete OT meltdown - ended up feeding him to sleep because shushing just not possible when DS1 just in from school.

Can normally get a 2 hour first nap - worst case 1h 40, can sometimes do 2h 30 or 3h.  Not sure whether to cap it to ensure 2h second A as this would help trying to get a longer nap for the 15.30.  Would need that otherwise would need to do an EBT.  I think he can only manage about a 1h 30m A before BT.  Yesterday he had 2h before BT and we had a NW at 9.45 - nearly DF time so fed him anyway.  Also had a 6.15 EW.  Although with lots of rolling, who knows?

Anyway what do you think about the set naps times?  Bit scary but might just work for him.   

By the way looked up Yes I hadn't really though about the fact that once bubbas are on 1 nap it tends to be at a set time.  DS1 went down at 1pm every day too.  I suppose I just thought that it was because they are on one nap for so long that it's fine to have a set time before they lose it completely.

I suppose though that as Alec would be on two naps, in theory if we set them he should be like that until about one year old (although his first A is now about 4h20/25  , which is dangerously close to 1 nap territory - at least he can't keep that A time up after.  Completely bonkers.  )

I still think I should wait a while for the rolling to settle down, and also this weekend we are going to go cold turkey to get him on the bottle which will completely throw things (Not looking forward to it but we have been trying so many gentler ways with no luck.  Had to do the same with DS1 when he was little too. Feel mean but at least Tracy did advocate this route which definitely makes me feel better...and it did work with DS1  )

...anyway after all that maybe I should look at setting his naps something like this -

WU b/n 6.15 and 7.00 (would always wake up by 7)
Nap 1 11.15/11.30
Nap 2 15.30 (after school run)
BT 19.00

Quite scary though as worst case scenario as the first A time could potentially be 5 h 15m or 5h 30!  He just seems to be able to handle so much then that I'd really have to push that out as much as poss to protect that second A because that is definitely when he gets OT and is a lot more sensitive.

Yesterday I put him down at 2h10 rather than the normal 2h for his second nap and it was a complete OT meltdown - ended up feeding him to sleep because shushing just not possible when DS1 just in from school.

Can normally get a 2 hour first nap - worst case 1h 40, can sometimes do 2h 30 or 3h.  Not sure whether to cap it to ensure 2h second A as this would help trying to get a longer nap for the 15.30.  Would need that otherwise would need to do an EBT.  I think he can only manage about a 1h 30m A before BT.  Yesterday he had 2h before BT and we had a NW at 9.45 - nearly DF time so fed him anyway.  Also had a 6.15 EW.  Although with lots of rolling, who knows?

Anyway what do you think about the set naps times?  Bit scary but might just work for him.   

By the way, I looked up Weissbluth.  Thanks for the warning about CIO because there sure is a lot about it.  Think I might try and do a bit more research re his set nap theories.  I did see he gives exact times for particular ages but I don't think my LO is really going to fit into anything 'age average'!