3 month old - are NW's ever from hunger if your LO wakes up 'gently'?

[lynners]

Yes I think you're right re at least one good nap.  Pretty sure with our A times on a non-school day with full naps we'd only fit in two naps now though without a catnap.

Another great night  and another day of needing even more A  .

S 19.30
NW 2.30 Back to sleep in 5mins, no E
NW 4.30 Back to sleep in 5mins, no E
WU and E 6.55
S 9.20 – 10.00 Aaaargh Clearly that A only worked for yesterday!
E 10.00
A
S 12.35 – 14.45 But woke up calmly at 40 mins for about 10 minutes – We need even more A.  This is insane.  He’s needing as much as a 6 or 7 month old
E 14.45
E 17.05 Hungry/rooting
S 17.25 – 18.05
E 18.50
S 19.35


Moving him in to his own room tonight while we’re on a role at night.  Fingers crossed.  Will see how it goes.

[Erin M]

Keep at it!  Hope it continues!

[lynners]

Oh Erin.  Fantastic night.  Horrible day.  Just lost with our A times now.  Seem to have gone from UT days to OT day.  Please help.

S 19.35
NW 2.00 Re-settled
WU and E 6.29 
S 9.03 – 9.43
E 10.00
A
E/Snack 12.10 Rooting
S 13.20 – 13.50 (put down at 12.18, OT and very hard to settle)
A
E 14.30
A
S 16.50 – 17.50 (put down at 16.10, very OT, hard to settle – woke at 17.50)
E 17.50
A
E 18.10
S 18.45

The only thing I can think is that maybe I missed his exact WU time as he's in a different room although I have the monitor on and when he woke up from his first 40 min nap he was calm so certainly didn't seem OT then.  Something went very wrong between first and second nap.  We went out for coffee with some friends at that time so maybe more stimulated A but not overly.  Definitely prefer a UT bubba than an OT one 

Hope it doesn't have a huge knock on effect to tonight. 

[Erin M]

Maybe all those huge increases were just a blip and he needs a bit less now?  Maybe pull back a little tomorrow and see where it gets you -- like you said, at least UT is at least happy.

[lynners]

Thanks Erin - I think holding back helped to day.

S 18.45
NW 2.00 Settled himself
WU and E 7.00 
A
E 9.15 Cranky/Rooting (Think there’s got to be a GS going on – Glad it hasn’t affected the nights as yet.  Glad to feed as much as needed during day!!!)
S 9.25 – 11.05 (Put down at 9.20 stirred at 40 minutes for a little while - maybe more A tomorrow?)
A
E 12.00
A
S 12.45 – 15.30 (Put down at 12.30 Cranky mantra, Getting close to ‘I need you’ stage - maybe less A tomorrow?  Woke at 15.30 to try and fit in CN)
E 15.30
A
S 18.00 – 18.35 (Put down at 17.30.  Was trying to get him down for a CN before his full A but was hard for him to get to sleep. Not sure if I should have kept him up longer.    Think it’s going to b tricky to get the CN in soon with our A times.  Do you think it would work to have both of the full naps a bit longer if possible – maybe 2 – 2 ½ hours each and then an EBT?)
A
E 19.00
S 19.40

[Erin M]

EBT could work, as long as its not super early!  My kids were always awful cat nappers so I did ebt out of necessity quite frequently when they were small.  First A time, it's so long already, you're prob just fine tuning, maybe 5 more minutes at a time?  That second nap is amazingly long (which is probably why he was so resistant to the cat nap)!  I do see what you mean, if you get naps like that consistently, your day is going to get crazy long if you don't cut out the CN. 

I'd say of you get a first nap longer than 2 hours that you keep the A time the same, otherwise a touch less.  If he likes long naps, he probably needed to take a longer one to need the full A time, if that makes sense?

[lynners]

Thanks Erin,

Good point.  The first A of the day has always been 10 minutes less than our full A, so I'm still adding 10 minutes on to that A for the next A if after a good nap.  As he's having much better sleep at night now though he can probably do a full A before the first nap so I'll now treat that first A time as full for the rest of the day.

I seem to have a a problem with my DF now though and could do with some advice.  All the day feeds have got much better now that the night feeds, other than the DF, have stopped (at the moment!!!)  The one in particular that has got much longer though is the DF which was fine for a while but last night's was an hour and a quarter!   It used to be about 15 minutes.   He'd feed on one side then pull off when finished.   I think it was the first night he STTN he happened to keep feeding on side to the point where he seemed to get frustrated as though that breast became empty.  He was pulling at my nipple, going on and off until I offered him the other side which he took and after about another 5-10 minutes pulled off contented. 

Now this two sided feed is what he wants which is fine (especially as it keeping him STTN).  This is what I do for the day feeds too but for the DF the length on the second breast is increasing every day.  Last night he must have done something like 30 minutes one side, then twenty the other (then frustrated). then 10 the other, then 5 the other then 10 before he pulled off satisfied.  I was in so much pain by then.  My nipples hurt so much I was having to bite my lip to distract myself from crying and moving around.  i suffer from arthritis which has been in remission for ages but I was finding having to sit still and quietly for so long I was getting pains in my legs which I would normally need to stretch out, but every time I moved he would guzzle extra hard .

I tried to get him off my nipple numerous times when he'd calm down but to no avail.  He was never really getting to that fluttery comfort sucking stage though.  He was really eating properly for that long.    I was in so much discomfort I was contemplating just pulling him off and facing the music if I was going to then have to sh/pat him off to sleep, but he was still asleep and I kept thinking surely he'll stop soon.

Maybe it was a bit of a GS thing but I really couldn't do another feed like that.  My nipples hurt so much.

Any ideas?

[lynners]

Sorry one more post before bed.  Could you please also check the other one I made today  Our day was as follows. 

Still haven't cracked our A -

S 19.40
DF 10.00
WU and E 7.15 
A
S 9.47 – 10.30 (Put down at 9.40)  Aaaagh – more A!! added 5 minutes on to yesterdays.  Another 5 minutes/10 minutes?
E 10.30
A
S 12.59 – 15.00 (Put down at 12.56)  This was similar to first A so maybe first A should be 10 minutes more?
E 15.00
A
S 16.40 – 17.20 Napped in buggy while we were out
E 18.00 Big feed
S 18.50

Also further to our discussion about nap lengths and struggling to fit in the CN with full naps, do you think it might affect night sleep if I do let him sleep longer than 2 hours during his 2 full naps if he's still sleeping at that mark.  I've got it in my head to never let him sleep more than 2 hours.  What do you think?

Thanks again Erin for all your help. x

[Erin M]

If you can fit your feeds in ok with letting him go more than 2 hours, I probably would.  10 minutes more A shoud work, though maybe 5 minutes at a time, his A times are so high already.  He mght pull back on them when he starts getting mobile too, just a thought. 
With the DF -- a couple things -- you could try some breast compressions to increase the flow towards the end of the feed (there's a link in the bf FAQ if you need it).  You could also try pumping after the feed to increase supply.  I'd also look to make sure you're eating/drinking enough in the latter part of the day as that can also mess with your supply.  Can you get him to settle if you do one side and then the other?  Even if you have to rock or pat a little?

[lynners]

Hi Erin,

Thanks so much for the great tips re DF.  Luckily last night he was on one side for half an hour then seemed to be slowing down so I took him off and he was satisfied.  I will definitely keep in mind your suggestions though.  Compressions could well help and I must drink more water!  Wish I could top him up with EBM but he isn’t taking the bottle.  Long frustrating story but plan to go cold turkey in a few weeks once he’s properly settled in his room and with STTN etc.  Last night was the first night out of his Moses basket and in to his cot and it went well!!! 

S 18.50
DF 10.00
WU 6.48
E 7.00
A
S 9.30 – 11.50 (Put him down at 9.22 – additional 10 mins from yesterday.  Woke after 30 minutes.  Put himself back to sleep very calmly in 10 minutes.  Isn’t 30 min nap normally OT but he was very calm.  Maybe just getting used to cot?  Not sure what to do about A tomorrow )
E 11.50
A
E 14.00 Did a top up E because of the time between our E’s
S 14.30 – 16.10(Put down at 14.25 so same as first A.  Also woke up at 40 mins very calmly for 10 mins.  To keep himself asleep/get himself back to sleep at these points he sometimes flicks his head from side to side, which he did over and over again at both wake ups.  Now he’s in his cot it probably feels quite different to ‘head-flicking’ in the moses basket or buggy because they would jiggle a little with the movement, unlike the cot.  Could be an issue although the head flicking generally happens when he’s struggling to get through the light sleep.  Tends to be if I’ve got the right A he hardly stirs.  Could normally go at least 2 hours too.)
E 16.10 (Enormous feed for about 40 minutes with eyes closed – very unusual.  Made me feel better about needing so much A time before bed.  This was very relaxed/half asleep A.  He’s also getting a bit of a cold – not sure how this might be affecting things.)
A
E 18.20 (Big feed considering such a big one at 16.10.  18.20 later than I would ideally give it.  Caught up with family stuff)
S 18.55














 

[Erin M]

The 30 minute nap thing is usually OT -- I will say with mine that I always had to look at how they woke -- if they woke calmly like that, they were definitely UT, if they were cranky and crying, definitely OT -- the nap length didn't actually matter as much as how he woke.  It could just be him getting used to the me surroundings though.  Give it a few days at that A time I would think and see how you do.

[lynners]

OK thanks Erin.  Will stick st this A and see how we get on.

Had a bit of an issue with our NW last night that I could do with some advice on please-

S 18.55

DF 10.15 (Normal length – about 20 mins)

NW 3.00 Cry escalated so DH went to settle him.  DS’s nose was very blocked so DH asked for help to use the ‘nose sucker’ to clear his nose.  Because the sucker has got a nozzle, every time we put it near his nose he would start rooting.  Don’t know if hunger was part of the reason he woke up but it felt to cruel to ‘get his appetite going’ because of the sucker and to not feed him so I did feed him.  (Pity he doesn't root when a bottle comes near him - maybe we need to stick it up his nose  ) He didn’t have a huge feed but settled well after it. 

Of course my concern is that we don’t want to start up with the night feeds again so don’t know what to do if we feel we need to use the sucker tonight.  Should I just try and get DH to settle him after because we know he can get through the night without feeds.  What if it is the GS???  What if he seems really hard to settle would/should I give in and feed him in case it's the GS.  Worried that would definitely creat a night feed habit again.  May have even just been getting used to his surroundings had moved himself so he was sleeping across ways in the cot.  Really don’t know what to do.   

WU 6.45

E 6.55

[lynners]

Before I start, apologies for such a long post on top of my previous post today (was just hoping for some advice before I go to bed for the previous one).

Really appreciate your help and I hope this isn’t too much of a read.  Not the easiest day today.

WU 6.45 (that’s when I heard him.  Could have woken earlier)
E 6.55
A
S 9.28 – 11.10 (put down at 9.20)
E 11.10
S 13.55 – 14.25 (put down at 13.45) woke calmly.  Didn’t even attempt to flick head from side to side/stay asleep.  Looked completely UT to me.  Not sure should stick at this A.  Still think he needs more
E 14.25
A
E 16.30 Thought I’d drop in another just in case we are in GS.  May help tonight.
So hard to settle though.  Put in to bed at 16.50.  Cried so much.  Shushed him for about 25 minutes to no avail.  Firework noises outside because bonfire night in UK.  Worried that
a] they were disturbing him
b] because I gave him a bit of a feed it had made him want a full feed
c] because of the clock change it’s now dark when I put him down for the CN so maybe he thinks he’s going to bed for the night so wants a full feed
d]  if I didn’t get him off to sleep soon he wouldn’t get the CN in before bed.

All in all, I ended up feeding him again for about ten minutes until he fell asleep, then work up once in cot and finally fell asleep after another ten minutes shushing. Not great and could only shush him because DS1 at Grandma’s today.  Would be a nightmare normally because I’d need to be feeding/bathing DS1 at this time   
S 17.50 – 18.30
A
E 18.55
S 19.30

Feeling quite stressed.  Have had pretty much two weeks to try and sort his naps up between DS1 being ill and DS1 being on school holiday but he’s back on Monday.  I still haven’t cracked it and I’m now going to have to jiggle around the school runs again.

On the plus side we’re at the stage where his first nap will be after the school drop off, and of course our nights have been so much better  but it’s the other end of the day that’s a nightmare  .  The only way I can get two good naps and avoid having to get him down for a CN so late is to be able to push the afternoon nap to 3.30 – 5.00/5.30.  To do that I need to be getting a really good nap for the first nap and need LO to be waking a little later as standard.  Still think maybe I need to be extending that first A

Something like –

WU and E 7.00
…probably have to have another E in here before S??
S 9.50/10.00 – 12.30
E 12.30
A
S 15.30 – 17.00/17.30 (15.30 is the very earliest I would be able to get him in to bed after pick-up so tricky)
E
A
E
S 19.00

What do you think?  If it doesn’t work though I’ll tend to get a silly little nap before pick-up and then problems with the CN after.  Feeling a bit freaked out.
 

[Erin M]

Ok, if he's sick don't worry about the night feed -- it will probably go away on its own especially one at that point in the night.  I would think some of your general unsettledness is due to him being sick -- I tend to blame that first as its usually the cause.

I'd say definitely feed before the first nap if you need to push your A time further -- and if it seems like he does then I'd say do it -- it's been working great so far so I'd stick with pushing it.  If you can get him to 3:30'formthat second nap, that would be great -- I also think it will be the case where it might be challenging at first to get him there, but he'll get used to it in time.  I'm also wondering if you're going to get a 12 hour night after him only waking up at 5/5:30 it bt is at 7, you know?  Might have to do bt closer to 8.

[lynners]

Just a quick positive update.  No NW's last night     and although a 6.15 EW we managed to get a pretty good two nap day.  Cracked the first A (for today at least  ) adding 10 mins and got a fab 2 1/2 hour sleep.  Still need more A before the 2nd nap which is good if I have to try and push it to 3.30.

Fingers crossed for tomorrow with our first day back at school for DS1.  Thanks again so much for your help Erin.  You're such a star