3 month old - are NW's ever from hunger if your LO wakes up 'gently'?

[Erin M]

Yay!  Good luck!

[lynners]

Went from definitely heading in the right direction yesterday to the least amount of day sleep he’s ever had today  Not sure how it went so wrong.  Completely lost what A time I should be aiming for and whether he was UT or OT? Definitely OT by the end.  Here’s our day. -

S 18.45
DF 10.00  Had about twenty mins on one side then pulled off settled.  As he’s been ‘asking’ for both sides since he’s been sleeping through I was worried that one side wouldn’t be enough to see him through.  So offered him other side and he took it for about 30 mins.  Kind of wish I hadn’t offered because I was very uncomfortable at the end. As he didn’t start pulling at my nipple though I felt I had to let him continue.  Did you always offer both sides for DF?  Maybe I should try with just one side on the weekend or do you think it’s risky and I should do both sides until it’s time to wean him off it at a later date?
NW 2.00 Self settled
NW 5.30 Self settled but took half an hour.  He got only about half hour more sleep.
WU and E 6.26
A Nearly asleep in buggy on way back from school
E 9.05
S 9.25 – 9.55 (Put down at 9.16.  3 mins later than the perfect A yesterday.  Woke calm but started getting cranky in 10 minutes or so.  Left not knowing if UT or OT.  Maybe OT as couldn’t do a full A because of 5.30 NW and then only half hour’s sleep?  Calm waking makes me think UT but unexpected with the start to the morning and the ever so slightly increased A. )
E 10.15
A Had to go out with buggy at about 10.35.  He started falling asleep pretty much straight away.  ( Do you think that tends to indicate OT or UT at previous nap?)  Maybe dozed for 5 mins in buggy before realising and picked him up.  Started dozing on the way back so carried home.   
E 12.20 – falling asleep, tried to keep awake
S 13.15 – 13.55 (put to bed at 12.35 –wriggled around cot in Woombie for ages then cranky right at end for a minute.  Little dozes affecting settling?  He woke up calmly and then cranky after five mins until fed.   Don’t know if OT/UT/just hungry?  Calm afterwards although did have sitting on my lap all the time – wasn’t taking any chances!)
E 14.00
A
E 16.00 Was falling asleep
S 16.45 – 17.20 (Put to bed 16.20.  Went to sleep calmly surprisingly)
A
E 18.00 Exhausted.  Fell asleep while eating. 
S 18.45





 













 

[lynners]

Sorry meant to add he's still got a bit of a sniffly nose but seems absolutely fine in himself.  Certainly hasn't had a temperature or anything.  Just a minor sniffly nose for a few days.

[Erin M]

Little dozes affecting settling?

My money's on this ^^^^^^^ right now (though I could be totally wrong).  I've done the same thing -- had mine nearly asleep in the car and go to put them in their beds and they're wide awake.  Not sure why -- I guess the nearly dozing is somewhat restful and keeps it from being a full A time, which is why you got the UT nap?  (And yes, putting all those shorter naps together would prob make him OT by the end of the day.)

I always double sided for the DF, but that might be something you'd play around with and see.  I know some ladies who moved to single sided when their LOs were not that interested in the WU feed.  If he's still taking that one well, I'd go with both sides for now (as it will certainly leave you second guessing whether or not he's hungry when he wakes in the night).

[lynners]

Thanks for advice re DF - definitely stick to two sided.  You're right.  It makes you more confident that if there is an NW it isn't for food - hopefully 

Great night last night after rubbish day.  Thought the OT day would rear it's head at night but he didn't wake until 7.20 

Another rubbish day today though and we didn't have any dozing in the buggy.  We literally ended up with 1 x 40 min and 1 x 30 min nap all day 

Got another UT nap first adding 5 mins to yesterday's A.

Within next A did an E at the start and one 1/2 hour before he was due to sleep.  However he kept falling asleep during the second A which threw the A time and ended up with another UT nap.  Think this may often be a problem trying to get two E's in my A.  Any suggestions?

My problem then was trying to work out the A before last nap.  I remember Sara suggesting that A-15min was a good starting point after an OT nap so I thought that maybe I should go for something similar because even though both naps were UT, by the end of the day he would be OT.  As the first A of the day didn't work, I figured that maybe the 'correct A' would have been adding another 5 mins, so did that then subtracted the 15 mins....

anyway LO screamed his precious head off.  Tried to shush him but very difficult as DS1 causing issues  .  Gave up and tried to feed him to sleep.  Again issues with DS1 and by then I thought I'd actually give up trying for the CN and go for a bath/then EBT.

Do you think I was way off with my estimated A before the CN?  He was definitely crazy OT.  Really didn't know what to aim for and sooo difficult that time of the evening with DS1.

Finding it generally difficult to gauge A's before CN's.  As we're only trying to get a short nap is always best to err on the side of caution and tend towards less A and hope he doesn't take too long to settle.  Better than risking OT?

 

[Erin M]

Finding it generally difficult to gauge A's before CN's.  As we're only trying to get a short nap is always best to err on the side of caution and tend towards less A and hope he doesn't take too long to settle.  Better than risking OT?

I agree with all of this.  I always had a really hard time with the cat nap with all of mine, so I never feel like I'm in a good position to give lots of advice there.    I did try to go sooner rather than later though as since you don't want a long nap, it's ok for an UT one. 

I wonder if you've got some OS going on with him being out and about dropping off ds1 -- was today a day where you were doing that?  I think in some cases you need to just give him some time to adjust to what you're doing every day now, if that makes sense. 

[lynners]

Not a great night but a much better day 

S 18.40
DF 10.00
NW 4.50 LO very upset. DH shushed him back to sleep – took 45 mins (but at least he didn't need feeding)
WU and E 6.46
E 9.25 managed to keep awake and did longer gentle wind down in case was OS from school drop off (good thought thanks)
S 9.51 – 12.51(put down at 9.46)  Can’t believe he’s on 3h 05 A.  He’ll be on one nap by 6 months at this rate    I woke him after 3 hours thinking surely if he had a longer nap than that it would throw him.  Crazy.
E 13.00 Great feed although kept falling asleep – can’t believe that after 3 hour nap!
A
S 16.00 – 16.40 Worked out so well as the nap fitted in after school and only needed a catnap (and not too late) to make it to an ok BT.  Hope such a day gives us a good night because it definitely made a good day.
E 16.40
A
S 18.40






 













 

[Erin M]

Wow, crazy long nap!!  Will be interested to see how the night goes!

[lynners]

...oh well we ended up with an EW.  Not sure if it was the 3 hour nap or the fact that it was too long an A after the CN and he ended up OT (remember Sara suggesting to keep it much shorter.  What's the earliest BT you would try if you were aiming for about a 7am WU?) or because he woke up chilly...


EW and E 5.50 (Started mantra then upset.  Went to check on him and he was wet through and probably cold as heating set to come on later.  Got him up.  Difficult time as would be due to go down for S during school drop off. )
A
E 7.45
A (Carried him during school run so he didn’t drop off.)
S 9.15 -  11.05 (crying after school run and 10 mins shushing to get down as OT)
E 11.05
A
S 12.10 – 12.45 (Fell asleep unexpectedly in buggy while out)
A
E 14.30
A
S 16.45 – 17.25
A
E 18.00
S 18.40 (ended up with a longer A after CN because of parent's night at DS1's school.  Will see if that affects tonight.  He seemed a bit OT when put down.)

..not sure if I should try again for the long nap then cat nap situation if it arose.

[Erin M]

What's the earliest BT you would try if you were aiming for about a 7am WU?

At his age, I would probably try as early as 6, but not an earlier than that.  Depends on your LO though, some of them do some crazy long sleeps when they need it!  But, seeing that he was wet and cold, that probably helped cause that EW.

not sure if I should try again for the long nap then cat nap situation if it arose.

You'd probably need to, he does have some crazy long A times, but he's still so small, I wouldn't think he could handle it without the CN.

[lynners]

not sure if I should try again for the long nap then cat nap situation if it arose.

You'd probably need to, he does have some crazy long A times, but he's still so small, I wouldn't think he could handle it without the CN.

Oh gosh no I didn’t mean that I would only give him one nap – I obviously didn’t explain myself clearly.  What I meant was that I didn’t know if I would do a 3 hour nap then a CN rather than 2 x 2 hour-ish naps or 1 x 2 hour and 2 x 40m.  I suppose that I probably couldn’t always rely on a 3 hour nap anyway and I do want to be able to settle in to an actual achievable routine for a while rather than it being different every day.  Although if I could try it again it would be good to know whether the 3 hour threw him or if as you say it was just because he was wet and cold which it well could have been.

Here was today… much better night…

WU 6.46
E 7.00
A
E 8.20
A
S 9.50 – 10.50 (put down at 9.46 – woke up cranky/OT.  Not sure why.  Had a longer A before nap yesterday.)
E 10.50
S 11.30-12.30 (Had to go out and LO dozed on and off in buggy)
A
E 13.45
A
S 14.30 – 16.30 (Put down LO in buggy to allow for a 40 min nap before school pick-up and a CN later, however LO slept through pick-up and getting home and had to be woken at 16.30!  Do you think that means that if he doesn’t have a full nap he needs more like 2 hours A than his normal 3? Seems like such a difference.)
E 16.45
A
E 18.40
S 19.25

 






 













 

[Erin M]

OK, gotcha.  I thought you still meant 2 naps + a CN actually, I didn't think you were trying to push him to one nap just yet. 

Do you think that means that if he doesn’t have a full nap he needs more like 2 hours A than his normal 3? Seems like such a difference.

Despite his usual crazy A times, he's still pretty little so it just might make that much of a difference!  Looks like your day has gone decently, I hope your night is good too. 

[lynners]

Sadly after our pretty good day yesterday we still had an NW/EW.  Not sure why…

S 19.25
DF 10.00
NW/EW 5.30 - DH Shushed to sleep in ½ hour.  Was mantra to begin with then definitely needed 1/2 hour of help.  Whilst DH was shushing him I got the fear that LO was hungry but after he settled he slept well til…
WU 7.30  and had to be woken up and to check he definitely wasn’t hungry at 5.30 I didn’t feed him til about 8.15 and he didn’t ‘ask’ for food at all.  Relieved and now feeling pretty confident that he can get through the night not needing feeding except for DF. 
E 8.15
A
E 9.50
A
S 10.40 – 12.30 (bit cranky)
E 12.30
A
S 13.50 – 14.30 Fell asleep in buggy again – strange after such a short A
A
E 16.00
S 16.45 – 17.30 (put him down at 16.30, had to wake him up which seems to support putting him down after just 2 hours if he has a short nap - that helps)
E 18.30
S 19.15

Fingers crossed for tonight.  DH away so on my own with my two DS's.  Would loooove it if they could both STTN tonight.

[Erin M]

Hope it goes well!  Does he always fall asleep with motion?  It took my ds forever to not pass out in the car, no matter how short the A time!

[lynners]

Hi, yes motion does help send him to sleep but only if he's quite tired.  Would normally take him about the same time to get to sleep in the buggy as it would in bed if I put him down at a full A, but at the moment he quite literally closes his eyes to sleep almost the moment I start pushing the buggy even if way off full A.  Definitely not normal.

Night time was pretty good and day was excellent  - although being a Sunday I didn't have the school runs to work around  -

S 19.15
DF 10.15
NW 4.30 for about 25 mins.  Very calm/happy at least and got himself back to sleep gently but doesn’t this indicate UT – could he really be UT from yesterday?
NW 6.15 Settled himself easily in 5 mins
WU and E 7.00 woke him up to try and start every day at 7 - really would like an actual routine that we can stick to most days hopefully.
A
E 8.30 Started falling asleep.  Desperately tried to keep him awake. Very tricky trying to get two E’s in to our long A.  Even just one in the middle (if he could last to it) might result in LO dozing and messing up the A time.  Any ideas? 
A
S 10.10 – 12. 05 Put him down 5 mins later because of mini doze – luckily worked but would rather avoid dozes at E's if poss.  Woke up crying though so think actually needed more S. Might have been DS1 noise that woke him up.
E 12.05
A
E 13.45 Eyes closed/dozing?
A
S 15.20 – 16.55 (Woke him.  Not sure how close to BT  I wanted him to go – see how our night is)
E 16.55
A
E 18.40
S 19.15