Author Topic: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...  (Read 6209 times)

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Offline Mattsmummy

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16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« on: November 20, 2012, 16:43:14 pm »
My DS will be 16 months old on Thursday.  We have numerous issues at play right now including chronic OT, teething, not being a fully independent sleeper, and NW and lack of consistency.

The first issue, and the focus of this thread will be tackling the OT and consistency which I think go hand in hand, and getting DS back to getting restful sleep.  I will then tackle the remaining issues.

DS is at nursery 5 days week.  His nap time is 12:15.  He will usually fall asleep around 12:30/12:45 and sleep for 1.5 – 2 ¼ hours.  My carer needs to be in sight of my DS for him to fall asleep.  My DS takes a soother.

His EASY is as follows:
WU – Anytime between 4:30am – 5:30 am
A
Nap – 12:30
A
BT – Any time between 6:30-8:00

I know that EBT is crucial here and we have been trying for a BT of 6:30 which is the earliest I can do.  I have already changed my work hours (which wasn’t easy) to allow for this time - which I started yesterday.  So for consistency’s sake, yesterday was day one of fixing the OT.

His normal BT routine is as follows and takes approx. 1 hour start to asleep.  Bath, jammies, stories with mum in rocker, kisses for daddy, lights out, songs with mum in rocker, into crib drowsy but awake.  I have been working on GW so I sit in the chair across the room and wait for him to doze off.  Some nights are faster than others but this OT has been causing him to be SUPER unsettled and take a long time to fall asleep.

Last night I started BT routine at 5:30 and had him in his crib for 6:10pm.  He was in no mood to sleep – rolling around, bouncing up and down, crying, chatting etc…
I ended up rocking him to the point of being VERY drowsy and then putting him back into his crib.  I desperately wanted him to get an earlier bedtime and didn’t want to have the fight tbh…

So, he was asleep at 6:30 on the money.
NW at 9:30 – brief, back to sleep in under 5 minutes
NW at 2:00 – longer, gave meds for teeth and walked with him for about 5 min to settle him down. He woke up crying hard.  Put him back into his crib, back rub to help settle and then I sat in my GW chair and waited for him to drift off. He was back to sleep around 2:35.
WU – 5:10 am – woke up crying.  I went in picked him up and sat with him in the rocking chair.  We sat for about 30 minutes. He dozed and then at 5:40 started crying and fussing so we got up.  I realize this is part of the problem with the EW and is an issue that needs to be addressed…One thing at a time…

So, for the last 10 days I have been keeping a very detailed log of DS sleep.  It is becoming clear that an EBT is helpful for getting a later WU as the 4am wake ups are usually following a 7pm or later BT. In the last 10 days he has STTN 3 times – but the EW remain.  The last few days have been really bad and his daytime mood is awful too.  He is cutting molars; it seems all 4 at once.  He has been rubbing his cheek and ear and drooling like crazy.

So, if anyone can help me with the following questions, I would SUPER appreciate it.

1. How long does it normally take for a LO to adjust to a new BT?  It seems his body clock is set for a post 7pm BT and he is having trouble settling down for an earlier BT.
2. Should I be concerned about APOPing him to sleep at this point or more focused on relieving the OT that has built up and work on IS once I get him back on track.  I don’t want to lose what we’ve done already…I'm was trying to work on getting him into his crib more and more awake and gradually moving out of the room.  He is normally drowsy but his eyes are open and he usually looks up to make sure I"m still in the room. He will then get comfy, find his lovey teddy and settle down to sleep. Is this okay or should I be getting him into his crib where he is sitting when I leave him - so essentially WIDE awake?

I’m sorry it is such a long post but I wanted to include everything this time to hopefully finally get this poor mite sorted out…I feel like  a terrible mother, that of all things, his sleep is rubbish…

TIA

Elizabeth
"But the fighter still remains"

Offline Lolly

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 18:43:29 pm »
It can take at least a week on a new routine to get any consistency really.

Can you do the nap any earlier too? If he is awake that early in the morning I think a 12.30 nap is too late for him - I would be aiming for 11 and let his sleep as long as he wants combined with an early bedtime until he gets caught up and the wake ups get later.

How long have you been sitting in his room - I *think* wit Gw you need to be removing yourself fairly soon really or there is no progress. I get why you want to APOP him to sleep, but if you are sleep training there is going to be OT so are you just prolonging things if you APOP and then have to get rid of that prop?

Laura


Offline Mattsmummy

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 18:50:54 pm »
unfortunatley  no, I can't change the nap. Earliest I think she will try and get him down is 12 noon.

I know that I need to remove my self quicker.  I just want him to get some decent sleep before I do that.

I guess, my question is should I simply focus on getting him some sleep before I continue with GW or do them both at the same time?
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Offline Lolly

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 18:53:14 pm »
I think you need to do both together really.

If you can't change bedtime or nap time I'm not sure what else to suggest. If he is OT the only way out is more sleep which you will only get from earlier naps and earlier bedtimes.

Laura


Offline Mattsmummy

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 18:58:05 pm »
So is it fruitless to even attempt then?  I'll simply work on GW and 6:30 bt and hope for the best that eventually he'll work it out?

Do you think the 6:30 BT will have any impact at all? I was hoping it would help as right now, save from quiting my job, it's the best I can do  :'(
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Offline Lolly

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 19:10:36 pm »
It's never fruitless but if routine is at the bottom of the issues and you can't change the routine it will take a long time to get anywhere. Yes the earliest bedtime you can do will help but if you can't change anything else it's not going to be a quick fix. Keep working on the independent sleep because if he can get himself to sleep without you he will be able to do it in the night and hopefully wake less often for less time.

I had this issue with my DS when he moved to 1 nap - he would fall asleep on the way to daycare and on the way home so 2 naps of 20 mins for 3 days a week ::). My parents cared for him 2 days a week and then with a weekend we would get him caught up and then the cycle would start all over again. I couldn't do anything about it because I had to work but what it meant was I had an OT little boy who didn't sleep properly until he was over 2. It was just survival really for all of us.

Laura


Offline Mattsmummy

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 19:22:56 pm »
Okay, thanks. Yes, it does seem like simple survival right now...
I will keep working on it then. Be firm about the 6:30 or earlier if I can manage and continue with GW.
How often should I be moving my chair? I'm about half way to the door now on the other side of the room. I started beside the crib.  Should I make a move tonight and get 3/4 of the way to the door?

DS is with DH today and his naps are essentially ruined because DH cannot follow simple instruction...So BT might be 5:15/5:30 - if he can get that right...Sorry, probably not supposed to talk like that but it's the truth...
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Offline Mattsmummy

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 13:48:47 pm »
So yesterday DS had a short am nap of about 50 minutes. DH could not get him to take a pm nap so he was very tired when I got home.

I had him in his crib asleep at 5:50pm...He was exhausted.

He had a LONG NW at 2:45am until around 4:00am.  He was crying and unsettled. I had to rock him. He finally went back down about 4:00ish and slept until 6:10am...

So, while I'm pleased my day started with a 6 instead of a 4 or 5, I imagine that long NW was OT and possibly discomfort? He has been really struggling with the molars. I gave him some meds at about 3 to help.

He is back at nursery today so his nap will be around 12:15ish...still a very long AM A time but I suppose it is going to take a very long time to fix this.

I will aim for a 6ish (if I can manage) bt tonight to continue working on this OT beast...
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Offline Mattsmummy

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 11:48:08 am »
okay, so hoping someone can help me here...
Last night, DS was asleep in his crib at 6:20. He only napped 1:45 yesterday. Up at 2am and didn't settle until 3:45...lots of crying and then bouts of seeming to be wide awake?!?

Slept until 5:40am.

I'm not sure what is going on with these long NW all of a sudden.  SEems an EBT gives me a long NW and slightly later WU.

What time should I do BT today? I'm out of work early so can do a BT of 5:30ish...

Anyone?
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Offline Smurfette

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 18:16:10 pm »
Hi there

I would do a bedtime as early as you can.
I wouldn't move the nap any earlier is it possible to add a 2nd nap on the days you're home? And/or on the days that you don't work, do bedtime of 5.

Is it possible for the daycare provider to provide supper so that when you pick him up you can just bath him and get him to bed right away?

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 20:03:52 pm »
Thank you so much!
I will continue to do BT as early as I can. I had thought of asking my daycare about that. It could be an option.
Yes I can do a second nap on the weekends. What time?
Also do u think the long nw are ot? Before with the later BT he would have short nw but be up at 445 :-\
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Offline Smurfette

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 20:40:29 pm »
If you are going to add a 2nd nap then I would put it somewhere around 8:30/9 am. If he's waking up super early and not going back to sleep then the earliest you could even start it would be 8:15am.

And yes, the long NW ( he's upset right, not just lying there content?) is OT. If he was just chillin and not saying much then it might be developmental, but if not then it's OT.

OT is cumulative and it can take a long time to get over. People often make the mistake of thinking that just because their child took a really great nap or had a good night that they have 'caught up'. That's just simply not the case, especially if there has been days upon days of bad sleep.
So keep with the early bedtimes as best as you can and give it time. :)

Offline Mattsmummy

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 16:39:45 pm »
Ok, so last night despite being in bed for 6, he didn't fall asleep until 6:55pm
He sttn until 4:35  :-[

Is it normal to take a while to tack on or should I be seeing results by now? The first 2 days had wu of 6:10 and 5:40

Also, what should I be doing when he wakes? I normally take him into the rocking chair with me - but he's started having an almost tantrum b/c he is awake and wants down. I struggle to keep him sitting with me which just makes him more angry, same if I put him back in his crib.  I am sure this is making the nw/ew worse.

Should I use GW and just leave him in his crib unil 6ish when I would want him up? what about when he wakes at 2????

Ugh..so confused and frustrated and getting really depressed about this whole situation...

DH is not helping as he thinks a later bt of 8 would solve things...despite what I say....
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Offline Smurfette

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 16:59:49 pm »
Ok, so last night despite being in bed for 6, he didn't fall asleep until 6:55pm

Totally normal. You need to give it at least 4-5 days to start seeing some changes. You are resetting his biological clock and when it's use to falling asleep so it takes some time to do this. Also it is very common for them to fall asleep and then wake at the time they use to go to bed and have a NWing then. Normal, normal, normal-frustrating as heck, but normal. Stay the course!!

Is it normal to take a while to tack on or should I be seeing results by now? The first 2 days had wu of 6:10 and 5:40

See above. But remember-everytime he doesn't nap well or has multiple NWs, it is going to take that much longer. If you are $50 in debt, you need $50 to get yourself out of debt but that just puts you at $0. If you want to be on the plus side of things, you need to accumulate more money and that takes time-does that make sense? He's in a huge sleep debt and you need to get him caught up and THEN he needs to get out of it and on to the plus side of things so it will take a few weeks in all likelyhood. This is normal and common and is just the way it is.



Also, what should I be doing when he wakes? I normally take him into the rocking chair with me - but he's started having an almost tantrum b/c he is awake and wants down. I struggle to keep him sitting with me which just makes him more angry, same if I put him back in his crib.  I am sure this is making the nw/ew worse.

I just recommended this on another thread as a really good way to ST; http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Ladys-Good-Night-Tight/dp/1593155581 Check out the section that pertains to your child's age and follow her sleep training to a "T". It is very similar to Tracy's mattress method but with much more detail. Don't take him out of the crib, he needs to learn how to go back to sleep by himself.

And yes-have a set time that you will start the day at. When he wakes before that you would follow the above method. OR, if he EWs but is just fussing, you don't have to go in at all. If it escalates go in but don't engage him. Really and truely take a look at the above book-it's a gentle method (so it takes more time) but yet it's structured to eventually get you out of the room and teach him self soothing skills.

Hang in there momma!!!!!

And in response to DH's thinking-I know it's so hard and it's so incredibly counter intuative, but a later bedtime with a OT child is the worst thing you can do. You will create a monster in no time. I've been there and learnt that the hard way. The majority of all sleep books from all the sleep experts and researchers (Ferber is the only one that suggest a later bedtime but that is only for certain situations) indicate that earlier bedtimes are the most healthy and productive way to go when dealing with OT.
IT JUST TAKES TIME!! :) 

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Re: 16mo Sleep Trouble - EW, OT, NW you name it...
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 17:33:19 pm »
Lord thank you so much for Smurfette!!!  You're an angel...thank you thank you thank you...

I will stay the course and keep DH at bay with beer and chips...   :P

Fingers crossed for tonite...
"But the fighter still remains"