Back again... These NW and EW are a killer!

[My little Liam]

Ok I will keep it up with those A times and see what happens in the next few days or so... But how do I actually know if the afternoon A time is correct if I have to cap it at one hour? I have never waited the whole nap to actually see when he wakes naturally....

He is just sooooo tired right now. He wakes up ok but after half an hour he is in SUCH a bad mood for the entire day and it is horrible for him and for me. He literally cries and whines all day long. I have tried medicating throughout the day thinking maybe it is teeth and that is why is in such a bad mood but there is no difference. He just can't handle an entire week of such short nights! I feel so bad for him!

[becj86]

Ok so what do I do when he is actually awake during the night? Leave him to crawl around and wait until he cries for me?

Yep, if he's happy, leave him.

At the moment, we have developmental stuff happening here too and DS lies in bed happily for over an hour after he wakes, chatting with his dummies and creating his own little imaginary world for them. His night sleep in incredibly short (getting down to 8.5hr some nights - this from a kid who used to STTN 13hr at times) but he's fine in himself. Barring pain/discomfort or extreme OT, babies really do self-regulate pretty well provided their world is predictable, hence EASY routine.

But how do I actually know if the afternoon A time is correct if I have to cap it at one hour? I have never waited the whole nap to actually see when he wakes naturally....

If you're capping at an hour, its enough that he's getting to an hour.

Developmental stuff often leads to whining and grumping anyway - wanting to do something, being so close and yet not quite there is really frustrating.

[Erin M]

I think both Bec and Katie are right with
1) riding out the developmental stuff as best you can -- and yes, it can cause major grumpiness sometimes
2) keeping an eye on A times (FWIW, 4 hours is actually just the high side of average at his age, not even close to unheard of...) --- and remembering that those A times can change during developmental leaps. 

[My little Liam]

Katie said something about not capping at less than an hour at my LO's age, but we have had some days with A times of 3hr40 so if I cap at anhour for the pm nap our day ends up being 12hr50 minutes
For example

WU 0700
S 1040-1210
S 1550-1650
BT 1950

That is a really late BT for us. Will he be getting enough night sleep? Should I cap at less or put him to bed earlier? I don't want him OT for bed but don't want him UT either. What do you think?

Also what do I do if the morning nap is 2hrs? Do I have to cap at 1hr30? He is OT at the moment from a week of bad nights so I would love for him to sleep as much as he likes but I don't know what to do with the rest of the day in that situation...

[My little Liam]

One last question, if I take him out in the stroller and he falls asleep before his A time is over but make sure to wake him at e hour mark, or leave him to sleep the whole 1.5hrs (since he went to sleep earlier and there is enough time for an entire nap) will that cause NW? (The only reason he can sleep so long with such little A is because he is in the stroller)

[becj86]

if I cap at anhour for the pm nap our day ends up being 12hr50 minutes

That's ok at this age, we aim for 12hr nights with LO's when they're really little and as they extend A times, we have to give them a little lee-way, so 10hr is the absolute minimum night as a general rule and 11hr is fine, there will be times during a nap transition that you end up with 13hr nights too.

One last question, if I take him out in the stroller and he falls asleep before his A time is over but make sure to wake him at e hour mark, or leave him to sleep the whole 1.5hrs (since he went to sleep earlier and there is enough time for an entire nap) will that cause NW? (The only reason he can sleep so long with such little A is because he is in the stroller)

It might, or it might help him catch up a bit... its worked both ways with DS. Sorry that's not terribly definitive or helpful, but there's no way to know for sure without trying. FWIW, I'd be spending that extra time with him on the floor letting him practise his crawling

[My little Liam]

What about the morning nap? Can I let him sleep 2hrs if he wants or do I need to wake him at 1.5 hrs? If I let him sleep our day will be even longer unless I cap the afternoon nap at 30 min.

[becj86]

Yes, you can let him have 2hr - you really don't want to be capping both naps as that's surefire path to overtiredness really fast. Of he does 2hr in the morning, 45min should be ok to cap at in the afternoon rather than the hour - I wouldn't cap at 30min or you will end up shortening the A time he can do to bedtime but the night will not be much longer and you could end up shifting your day earlier. You just don't want day sleep going below 2.5hr at this age, really.

[My little Liam]

Ok... Will give it a try!
Yesterday in the stroller he fell asleep after 2hr50 A time and woke 40 min later...:/ Ended up with a EW at 0430 sleeping on and off for 10 minutes each time and crying all the time until 0600 when he finally slept until 0645 and woke up crying. Horrible mood this morning! I have a feeling I have to really make sure the afternoon wake time is right... Usually with the EW I can get him to fall back asleep and when he is asleep he is really asleep. This time it was like he was dying to sleep but he just couldn't! He just seemed so frustrated.

[becj86]

This time it was like he was dying to sleep but he just couldn't! He just seemed so frustrated.

Yeah, these are tricky times. Often its because of the buildup of OT - that will go as you continue with the right routine for him and help him catch up with good nights. The adrenalin in his system keeps him awake even though he wants to be sleeping because he is tired - as this reduces, so he will find it easier to sleep in those early hours. You do have to be really careful to stick to the routine like glue for a few days to a week to get him sorted though.

[My little Liam]

Oh, I forgot to ask (I hope I'm not driving you too crazy ), if I cap at 1 hr before bed what do you think his wake time should be? And if I cap at 45 min?

[becj86]

LOL, not at all

1hr bought us about 2.5hr at that stage and 45min bought us 2hr - 2hr15 depending on whether he was stirring when I woke him (longer if he was stirring because I got him right at the lightest part of his sleep cycle). You may find he needs slightly more time than that, DS always did fine with quite a short A to bed so long as he had two good long A times in the day.

[My little Liam]

And if he takes a 2 hr nap this morning do you think he needs a longer A than 3hr40 before his afternoon nap?

[becj86]

Not necessarily - remember you're going to cap it at 45min or 1hr max. so provided he's not fighting going down due to UT, you're ok. If he will go down a tad UT and wake independently at 45min-1hr, that will shift BT a little later as you haven't capped the nap, waking naturally feels different, yk?

[My little Liam]

What would a NW 50 min after going to bed mean? UT or OT?
This was our day
WU 0645
S 1025-1155
S 1510-1625 in stroller
BT 1910
NW 2000