Back again... These NW and EW are a killer!

[My little Liam]

So I guess you could say one step forward two steps back for me and my LO!
When I finally figure out his routine all is good for about a week and then something messes it up again... Ahh babies... I could scream :/

This is his routine for the last few days:

Monday night
BT 1930 after crawling and me picking him up
NW 2315-0115 unusual so I thought maybe hungry. BF but he still wouldn't go to sleep. Crawled in bed until hysterically crying. Had to rock to sleep at 0115
EW 0530 BF

Tuesday
WU 0705
A 3hr30
S 1035-1150
A 3hr30
S 1520-1625
A 3hr10
S 1935 fell asleep bf because we had guests over and I didn't have time for the crawling
NW 2315-0100 this time I didnt BF until 1245. Fell asleep with hand on chest independently.
EW 0545 BF

Wednesday
WU 0700
A 3hr35
S 1035-1235
A 3hr40
S 1615 will wake at 1700. fought nap had to BF to sleep
Planned BT 1930 crawled around tried to sit at 1945 I could tell he was so tired so I took him into my arms and stroked his forehead and he was asleep in 2 minutes. In bed by 1950
W2S 2215 (no night waking at 2315 yay!)
NW 0130 BF
EW 0440  wouldnt relax so I BF just a bit to calm him and he fell asleep
WU 0555

He was on a 3hr 30A but started to fight going down and was giving me naps of 1hr10-15 so I upped it by 5 minutes yesterday.i got a 2 hr nap but he is still fighting going down.
I have to say that he does not nap in his crib but my bed with me. That is the time I  nap too so it is just easier to do it together. It has been like this from day one and he has always slept in his crib at night falling asleep independently for naps and nighttime. The only change there has been is his mobility.i always put a hand on his chest to help him fall asleep. When I am in bed next to him that is not a problem and so he usually goes to sleep easily until now. At night I was also putting a hand on his chest but he is now fighting me trying to role over so that he can crawl and I don't want to be forcing him down so we have a problem getting to sleep at night. For NW he usually bf so he falls back asleep in my arms while bf.
We had this problem at night when he just started rolling over. It lasted around 3 weeks and then everything went back to normal and the hand on chest was enough again. Now that he can really move I am afraid it will just get worse instead of better. The last few nights I have tried getting him to sleep at night in his crib as usual and after 15-20 minutes of his crawling and me laying him back down repeatedly I just pick him up and falls asleep very fast because he is obviously very tired but will not relax in his crib.
For the naps since has been fighting it the last few days I have had to bf on some occasions to get him to sleep but when he does sleep he sleeps well. He has not been eating his solids in the morning the last few days either. I think he is just too tired in the morning since he is only getting on average 10hrs of sleep when he used to sleep 11.5 hrs. Lunch time is no problem since he is in a better mood after his morning nap. His afternoon nap I have been capping so that his days aren't too long.

So these are my questions:

1. What is with the EW? Could I need to give him an even longer A time at only 7 months 10 days? I feel like am already really pushing it with 3hr35. Maybe only for second nap after such a good morning one?

2. Do you think the bad sleep is developmental or is he only doing it because of bad routine and if he is already awake he might as well practice? He has been army crawling for about 3 weeks and is almost getting into a sitting position alone. Yesterday he started to try pulling up for the first time on the window sill he hasent tried pulling up on the sofa or anything high, only on low things

3. Regarding BT. I spoke to jess on the easy board about his BT and she thinks he may be UT at bedtime and that is what is leading to the 2315 NW and also the crawling in bed at BT. I have started to try a bit longer A's at BT depending on the length often second nap but I am actually maybe thinking he is OT by the end of the day especially with such short nights lately and the crawling. He almost falls asleep BF every night but acts hyper and jittery when I get him dressed after bath and also once I lay him in bed with the crawling. Is it possible to have such high A's throughout the day and the a very short A before bed? If so what would you recommend the A be? I am so confused about this.

4. I think the changes in wake up and the in nap times every day are driving him a bit crazy. Until last week he would always wake at 0630 so his naps were always around the same time give or take 5 minutes. The we stated having bad nights so I wouldn't him sleep in so he wouldn't be OT and everything got messed up, he was waking at 0800 one day, 0700 the next, then 0730, then 0700 again and finally 0600 so his naps have been at all hours and he is constantly rubbing his eyes starting from the moment his naps have usually been before this mess started. I feel like he is the kind of baby that really needs a structured schedules its set times for everything, that is why I really want to get back on track so our day won't be surrounded by constant fussiness, eye rubbing and yawning.

PLEASE HELP!!!

[becj86]

Sounds like its developmental, TBH. We had sleep disruption with most physical milestones and it settled down after a few weeks every time.

I think you're right to push those A times again with the shorter naps, make sure you hold still for a few days to give him time to get used to them now.

DS did two long A times and a pretty short A to BT quite happily - he needed the long A times but he needed a day not longer than 12.5hr or so, so his routine was something like this for a while:
4hr A
1.5hr nap
3.5hr A
1.5hr nap
2hr A
BT

Maybe you just have to wake him at a certain time if he sleeps in and set naps within a 15min window since his body clock is like that...

[My little Liam]

You think he could handle a 4 hr A at his age? Is that even heard of at his age? It seems so high that it scares me a bit...
I realize that I didn't mention that his second nap I have been capping so that his day isn't too long that is why they are less than 1.5 hrs.
Yesterday for example  woke him after 2 hrs for his morning nap. And then put him down for afternoon nap after 3hr35 but he cried and fought so I gave him a little boob to relax him and he fell asleep and I capped the nap.
Jess thinks he fought because after a 2hr nap in the morning he was UT

Now this morning I put him down after 3hr35 A like yesterday and he cried again and I was a actually worried about OT because he is been in a horrible mood this morning and super tired so again I gave him boob just for a minute to relax and he is now sleeping almost 2 hrs and I think I will need to wake him again.
Either he is just a little OT and can handle it or he is still getting used to the A? I really don't know... What do you think?

[becj86]

Not saying you should do that, just saying its possible to do a really short A time to BT

I'd say getting used to the A time. With what's happening in his brain, he will likely be fussy, especially if not given ample opportunity to practise all his new skills. Give him a few days at that 3hr30/40 time and see how he goes. 2hr naps will probably shrink a bit once he's used to it but you'll be able to keep the routine the same for longer.

[My little Liam]

Ok I'll do that. So if my day is going like this so far
WU 0555
A 3hr35
S 0930-1130

What do you think A should be after such along nap? 3hr40? And when should I cap it? How long of an A till BT

[My little Liam]

And why am I actually getting these EW?
Also, is it ok that he is falling asleep at BT in my arms? Otherwise he won't fall asleep for hours just crawling and playing in his crib. When this whole developmental thing is over will he go back to sleeping with me putting a hand on his chest or do most babies crawl around a bit before they settle down to sleep at night?

[becj86]

And why am I actually getting these EW?

If his nights aren't below 10hr, its not an EW. Nights shorten when A time needs an increase...

Also, is it ok that he is falling asleep at BT in my arms? Otherwise he won't fall asleep for hours just crawling and playing in his crib. When this whole developmental thing is over will he go back to sleeping with me putting a hand on his chest or do most babies crawl around a bit before they settle down to sleep at night?

Yeah, usually LO's go back to independent sleep pretty easily provided they've been independent sleepers before. DS wriggles about before sleeping, always has.

[My little Liam]

so last night was a complete fail and i am starting to lose it! i decided to try and give an EBT of 1800 to catch up  on sleep but also to see it maybe he needed a short A before bed. this was our day:
WU 0555
S 0930-1130
S 1500-1540 capped
BT 1800
NW 2030 i dont know if really to call this a NW. he rolled over and stood on all fours. i quickly came in, rolled him back over and poppped in the paci and he was asleep. i think he never actually woke.
NW 0040 BF
NW 0215 got confused with the time and thought it was later so bf again
NW 0250-0450 wide awake playing in bed then crying out for me. when i would pick him and sit with him in chair he would try to stand, pull at my hair. after trying everything to get him to sleep i took him to our bed at 0400 in hopes of sleep and started to cry out of frustration. still would not sleep until i bf again at 0450. by then he was crying because he was so tired.
WU 0700

i am so frustrated and tired. nothing i do gets him to sleep he will just crawl, try to sit up and pull at the top of the crib until he is extremely tired and then cry histerically but will not just lie down and sleep. even if i sit with him this can go on for hours. i am so afraid that bf has become a prop, especially since the last few days of naps he has needed it too. i need help! i dont know what to change with our routine and i dont know how to make this better. he is in a constant bad mood and so am i... i am having a meltdown!

you said he needs an A increase, but where? he isnt even 7.5 months old yet and he is already doing 3hr35 A time. the fact that i am capping the second nap also leaves me in doubt because he is fighting all naps at the moment so i dont know if the A time is right for the second nap especially since i dont know when he would naturally wake from it.... i want to cry again...

[becj86]

nothing i do gets him to sleep he will just crawl, try to sit up and pull at the top of the crib until he is extremely tired and then cry histerically but will not just lie down and sleep. even if i sit with him this can go on for hours.

This sounds like its developmental with him starting to crawl. Lots of floor time during the day... there's not a lot you can do, his brain is working really hard and not shutting off for sleep. What is his temperament?

Let me see if I can get someone else to have a look. DS did this stuff and it lasted a good couple of weeks every time and then he was fine again, we just had to ride it out, a bit like teething.

[My little Liam]

If its developmental I don't have a choice but to ride it out... I would like to figure out the right a times though before bed and to know if the a time before afternoon nap is right

[becj86]

Well, while the developmental stuff is going on, you can't do much tweaking because the results are unreliable with respect to how he will be once he's through the phase, you know?

[My little Liam]

Ok so what do I do when he is actually awake during the night? Leave him to crawl around and wait until he cries for me? Pick him up and try to get him back to sleep? Is it ok to Bf each time to get him to sleep? He is not hungry anymore in the morning, not even for solids...
How long can this go on for? It has already been give or take 2-3 weeks....
I don't remember who it was but someone on the board said something about his routine needing tweaking and that he wasn't waking to practice his skills but that he was practicing them because he was already awake, kwim?
Plus I am so confused about the last a time. I have tried long, I have tried short. I don't know what's best to keep for now...

[My little Liam]

Just woke up from am nap after 1hr20. I know a times aren't reliable now but do you think he could do 3hr45 a time or is that too much for his age? He woke up grumpy kind of whining a little, what does that mean?

[Charjanemom]

Hugs

We are going through shorter nights too but not the NW. We are also up to 3.5/ 345 A times and getting just shy of 1.5 hr naps. My dd is 8 months old. It's crazy. Does your LO seem any different. I can tell in her eyes that less night time sleep is catching up to her but she wakes and just keeps trying to crawl in the morning. I think Bec is right that the brain is so busy. So many changes at this age it seems. Good luck!

[katie80]

Hi there, Bec has given you wonderful advice. I think you might need to just stay consistent with one routine for several days to a week before trying to change everything again. If 3:30-3:40 A is what works for him right now, then stick with it for a week before you try to change it. One 1h20min nap doesn't necessarily need he means a change. But, if they start happening often, then you need to tweak. Is there a chance he's getting teeth? We've had lots of 1h20min naps while teething and they could also be contributing to the NW.

It really does sound developmental to me as well, but I also wonder if a prop is coming into play. It sounds like you're BFing a lot to sleep and also rushing into him quite quickly to get him back as quick as possible. I don't blame you at all, developmental milestones can be such a bugger. But, if you keep doing it, there's a good chance he'll start waking not because of other things, but because he's gotten used to the prop. I know it's so much easier for me to say, because I'm not going through it right now, but I have BTDT with both my kids and you really do need to ride it out sometimes and let them get it out of their system.

Finally, I don't know that I would be capping a nap below 1hr at this age. Instead, I'd let the day go out to 12.5hr if needed.