7 month old - 5:30am EW

[Lindsay27]

Hello!

My 7 month old is having 5:30am EWs and I can't figure out why! 

Over the last few weeks I have tried to be very consistent with his daytime routine as we were battling 30min naps, and things have been improving greatly.  He has about a 3hr 10min A time, then both morning and afternoon naps tend to be about 1.5hrs, sometimes longer, sometimes 1hr 10-20mins, but usually 1.5hrs. 

At night he goes to bed between 7/7:30 and then wakes up for a NF usually around 2am, but can be anywhere from 1am - 4am.  Then, 5:30am on the dot he's awake.  Rarely can I get him back to sleep, so I usually bring him into my bed and he will sleep/doze on/off until around 6:30am, then we get up for the day.

I think his A times are okay, and his naps are slightly on the short side I guess, so I don't think too much daytime sleep is the issue either.  His teething has calmed down greatly over the last few weeks - he has almost completely stopped drooling and gnawing on things, so I don't think it is that either.  We don't have reflux issues, and he doesn't appear to be in any sort of pain...I am kind of stumped! 

Appreciate any input

[becj86]

Have you tried wake to sleep if its 5:30 on the dot every day?

Is there anything environmental - light, noise at that time of the morning that could be waking him?

[Lindsay27]

I don't think there is any noise that could be waking him.  I haven't tried W2S with this one, mostly because I was just dreading having to do a NF at 2am, and then wake myself up at 4:30am to do it...that doesn't sound like fun at all!  Though, 5:30am wake ups aren't fun either.

I am not so sure that it is a habitual waking, it is more like when he wakes for his NF, he only sleeps an additional 3-3.5hrs no matter what time the NF was.  It just so happens that his NF is usually at 2am, making the next waking at 5:30am.  I say this because last week he had a NF at 1:30am, then his next waking was 4:30am, and another night his NWs were 4am/7am. 

[Erin M]

Can you post your whole EASY with eating times, amounts, etc -- maybe there's something there. 

[becj86]

I am not so sure that it is a habitual waking, it is more like when he wakes for his NF, he only sleeps an additional 3-3.5hrs no matter what time the NF was.  It just so happens that his NF is usually at 2am, making the next waking at 5:30am.  I say this because last week he had a NF at 1:30am, then his next waking was 4:30am, and another night his NWs were 4am/7am.

What happens if you treat it like a NW - feed and back to bed with minimal interaction?

[Lindsay27]

Our EASY today was like this...a pretty typical day

5:30am - EW, brought into my bed and he slept on/off until 6:30am

E - 6:40am (6oz)
Solids @ 7:30 - 2 tbls oat cereal, 2 ice cubes fruit
A - until 9:30
S - 9:30 - 11:00

E - 11:00 (6oz)
Soilds @ 12:00 - 2 cubes veggies, 1 cube fruit
A - until 2pm (he seemed really tired during this A time)
S - 2:00 - 2:20, settled back to sleep (15mins), then slept until 4:30pm...this was a little abnormal for him to go so late, but the waking after 20mins likely attributed to that

E - 4:30pm (6oz)
Solids @ 5:30pm - 3 cubes veggie, 1 cube fruit (I normally only do the 3 cubes, and I give meat every other night)
A - until 7:30
S - BT - 7:30pm (7oz bottle)

I don't normally feed him again if he wakes at 5:30am (or whatever time the 2nd NW is), because I find it affects his first feeding too much.  Once I started giving 3 meals of solids his fluid intake decreased, so the mod on the bottle feeding forum recommended starting to reduce his NF down to 5oz (used to be 7oz) so that he would take more during the day.  I started that last night, and it worked well in terms of his fluid intake today (he was only taking about 3 - 4 oz per feed, but today bumped up to 6oz. 

So, the reduced NF could have impacted his 5:30 EW this morning, but wouldn't explain it the other times.

[Lindsay27]

Just wanted to mention, the gap between his 2nd and 3rd bottles was long today (5.5hrs) because the afternoon nap was a little wonky.  Normally it wouldn't be that long, more like 4.5hrs.

Prior to last night he was taking 7oz at his NF, I wouldn't think that he would take a 7oz bottle at 2am and need to eat again at 5:30?  But maybe?  He has been only having 1 NF for months.

[becj86]

I wouldn't think that he would take a 7oz bottle at 2am and need to eat again at 5:30?  But maybe?  He has been only having 1 NF for months.

I don't really know much about bottles... I do know that babies sometimes do need an extra night feed after being on one for a while but not usually for more than a week or so.

I'm inclined to suggest maybe teething is relevant to this 5:30 waking.

[Erin M]

Quote from: Lindsay27 on Yesterday at 09:41:39 PM
I wouldn't think that he would take a 7oz bottle at 2am and need to eat again at 5:30?  But maybe?  He has been only having 1 NF for months.
I don't really know much about bottles... I do know that babies sometimes do need an extra night feed after being on one for a while but not usually for more than a week or so.

Not a bottle expert here either, but we do generally expect babies to go as long (or longer) during the night as they do during the day, so I would say that the 5:30 waking isn't hunger.  Are teeth a possibility?  All 3 of mine had EWs when they were teething (and with ds, it's not so much the actual teeth breaking through as it is teeth moving around underneath the gums where you can't see them anyway).

Your routine looks good, will keep thinking about it. 

[Lindsay27]

Not a bottle expert here either, but we do generally expect babies to go as long (or longer) during the night as they do during the day, so I would say that the 5:30 waking isn't hunger.

I agree, this feed in the night is more than enough to get him through to morning, I don't think it's a hunger waking.

Our routine right now is probably the best it has ever been, which is kind of why I am stumped.  Yesterday he had a 2.5hr nap in the morning, and a 2hr nap in the afternoon which I had to wake him up because it was 5pm and he was still sleeping.  He took his NF at 12:30am then slept until 6:10am, so at least he passed the 5:30am mark

In terms of teething, I supposed it could be related, but he isn't showing any of the usual teething signs - no drooling, no gnawing, and he is in pretty good spirits.  He is sort of sucking on his bottom lip and doing funny things with his tongue, so maybe it is a little related and he is just handling it better?  He doesn't have any teeth as of yet.

[Baileysmom31112]

I'm having a similar issue and I do think mine might be teething. Just wondering, if the EW is related to teething, what do you do about it??

[becj86]

Just wondering, if the EW is related to teething, what do you do about it??

Meds if you're comfortable with it. A dream-med is more likely to help or medicating if LO wakes in the early hours of the morning (like 2-3am).

[Canadian_Mom]

Could the EW be a build up of OT??  After a total daytime sleep of 4.5hr compared to 3 or less hours, he slept later...
What do you think?

[Erin M]

Could the EW be a build up of OT?? 

Could be.  Could also be that the teeth aren't bothering him anymore and he's catching up.  Always a mystery!

[Lindsay27]

Our last 3 nights have been worse    He is consistently waking at 12am, 4am, and 5:30am...I am sleepy!  I know the 12am waking isn't a hunger one, but I find the only way I can get him back to sleep is to feed him.  Last night I offered a 5oz bottle and he only took 2oz, so it's definitely not hunger.  The 4am waking, I don't have any ideas.  Last night I got him back to sleep by 4:45am, and he only slept until 5:30am.  Ugh!  At 5:30am DH brought him into our room and he co-slept until 6:20am.  The night before last I fed at the 4am waking (so 2 NFs that night), and he slept until 6am, but his feeding schedule was royally messed up for the rest of the day, so I am not a fan of doing that.

I guess I will try W2S for the 12am waking and see what happens.

Our naps haven't been great which I am sure has something to do with it, over the last 3 days I have only been getting 1 good nap a day.  He wakes early for the others and settles, but not the same as a solid nap.  I am just frustrated, sigh.  Even when we were having good days, his nights were still not great.

Could be a build up of OT, but I would think that 3hrs of daytime sleep for a 7.5 month old *should* be enough?  Still no teeth, but his cheeks are pink (no fever though) so I gave him some meds before bed the other night and it didn't make a difference.

[Erin M]

It does sound like you need some more A time if your naps are short, even if he is eventually settling.  You're saying that he's getting 3 hours of naps, but it doesn't sound like 3 very solid hours at all.  It could be that the broken naps are causing some OTness as well.  What are you up to for A time for that first nap?

[Lindsay27]

Last week we had great naps all week with 3hrs solid hours (or more) of daytime sleep, but every night his NW kept creeping earlier and earlier and we eventually got 2 NWs even though his days were great.  His naps this week have not been great, so I fully get that his so-so naps this week might have been contributing, but even on the good nap days we still have issues.

Monday was good - he had a 1.5hr nap in the morning and a 1.45hr nap in the afternoon and his day as a whole was fantastic - classic EASY and he was happy all day, but we still had a crummy night with 2 NWs and an EW.  We currently have an A time of 3hrs, sometimes a bit more (10 mins or so).

Yesterday I tried extending his A time in the morning a little because he seemed content, but I got a 30min nap (he settled and slept another 40mins), so in the afternoon I went back to a 3hr A time and he had a 1.5hr afternoon nap.  I assume the 30min nap was OT.

Tonight will not likely be great because  had a 1hr 10min nap this morning (which would have been longer but the dog woke him up barking at the mailman....grrrrr dog!!!), and this afternoon was a lot of running around Christmas shopping, so he only really slept in the car.  I put him to bed a little early, but I don't expect the night to be great.

[Erin M]

I assume the 30min nap was OT.

Sounds like it, especially if he settled. 

Let me know how your night went. 

[Lindsay27]

The night was horrendous, probably our worst night ever to be honest.  I had him asleep by about 6:50pm because I knew he was OT from our day out, and he woke every 45mins from BT until 11pm.  Then he slept a 2.5hr stretch from 11 - 1:30am where I fed, and then again woke every 45mins until 3:30am.  From 3:30 he slept until 7:20am.

I am exhausted, at 3:30am I'd only slept 2.5hrs so I woke DH up to help!  I know that this is a result of his lack of sleep yesterday, but holy cow...it was ridiculous.  We've had days out and OT wakings before, but nothing like this.  Today we are focusing on naps...obviously.  Going to stick around the 3hr - 3.15 A time I think because that seems to be where we get the best results.  FX for good naps today

[Lindsay27]

2 great naps today, so hopefully our night is better   1.5hrs this morning, and currently 2hrs this afternoon - both with a 3hr A time.  I am actually going to need to wake him up because it is almost 5pm and I don't want him napping later than that!

[becj86]

FX for a better night tonight!

[Lindsay27]

So after the good naps, the night wasn't exactly spectacular - he woke at 12:30am which I tried to feed, but he only took 2oz, so it wasn't a hunger waking, then again at 4am and I tried to settle him, but couldn't...so I gave him the rest of his bottle.  He eventually went back down but it took over an hour.

Last night however was good - 7:30pm BT, NF at 2am, up for the day at 6:20am.  But our naps yesterday weren't great - 1hr 20mins in the morning, and then DH and I had Christmas shopping to do, so he napped 30mins in the car on the way there, and 30mins home...so I wasn't hopeful for the night, but it turned out good

So, this makes me think...at what point do I start capping daytime sleep?  He always naps 1hr 20mins in the morning like clockwork, and his afternoon naps are always longer, 2+ hours.  He is 7.5 months now, so how much is too much?  On the days he takes long naps, it doesn't really seem to improve his nights, so I'm wondering if on those days he is sleeping too much during the day?

Also, on the NF - do I start weaning this or is it something he will drop on his own?  Sometimes I wonder if it is just habit for him to feed in the night, he doesn't seem starving or anything, and he eats lots during the day.

[Erin M]

So, this makes me think...at what point do I start capping daytime sleep?

Based on your days, he does seem to do better at night with a touch less sleep during the day.  A 2 hour long second nap could definitely be capped a bit.  Remind me, how long is his night (BT to WU)? 

Night feeds -- babies differ really widely on this one.  If your gut tells you that he doesn't need it, you can try it without for a few nights and see where if gets you.  If you're up for it and willing to stick it out, just try resettling him by any means necessary and see where it gets you.  If he truly doesn't need it, it should only be a few nights before he starts sleeping better at night -- if you get constant wakings every night, I'd call it hunger and say he's not ready to drop the night feed. 

[Lindsay27]

I am going to see how tonight goes, he napped 1hr 20 mins this morning and 2hr 20mins this afternoon.  He was still plenty tired when he went to bed.  I usually have him asleep between 7/7:30 dependant on what time he wakes from his PM nap. If he avoids the 5:30 EW, then a 'normal' WU time would be around 6:15am, so about 11ish hours of sleep. I have actually wondered if the 5:30am EW is because by that time he has already had 10ish hours of sleep and he just isn't tired any more? 

With regards to dropping the NF, I am going to leave it for this week because we are going on vacation Friday, but when we get back I think I might keep reducing his bottles and see what happens.  If he keeps waking like you said, I assume he's not ready.  Thanks for the info

[Erin M]

11 hour nights are a good aim at this age -- I haven't heard of babies doing much less without getting OT. 

Good luck with the NFs. 

[Lindsay27]

Last night was decent - asleep by 7:20pm, he woke up at 11:45pm and I tried to settle him back to sleep because I thought it was too early for a feed, and I did get him down, but as soon as I climbed back into bed he woke up    So, I fed despite me thinking it was too early.  He slept through until 5:45am where I heard him make a couple squeaks, but he settled himself back to sleep and woke up for the day at 6:40am.   So, I guess the good naps didn't impact his sleep...so I'll stick with not capping them for now.

Still that 5am hr wake up though.  I just don't know what that comes from    Developmentally, he is a day or two away from fully crawling, so maybe that has something to do with it?

[Erin M]

Developmentally, he is a day or two away from fully crawling, so maybe that has something to do with it?

Certainly could be.  EWs were generally teeth with us, but I've definitely heard other people say that developmental stuff causes EWs. 

[Lindsay27]

Well over the last few days his cheeks have gone quite red, so maybe it is teeth.  It doesn't seem like he has any bumps on his gums that indicate one is going to poke through, but I don't know what else the pink cheeks could be from.  Today they were really red - no fever or anything, so I guess teeth.

[Erin M]

Teeth always bothered my ds more before they broke through -- the shifting around under the gums was what really bothered him the most.