Can't lengthen 13 week old twins A time

[BareFootMomma]

1:25 hr A time = 2 hour nap #2!!!

They were both melting down by the end of it so I think it could have been 5 ish minutes shorter, but they still slept! One baby has been in the swing for both naps, but I will take it!

Edited to add - I kept them up for 1.5 hrs again for their 3rd A time, but this time they were a little more difficult to get to go to sleep, and they woke after 1:15hrs. I'm not quite sure if they got OT or weren't quite tired enough after the two good naps, but this was the best day in a LONG time so I don't care!

Overall, this was our day:

Wake and E - 7:15
A - 7:45 I topped them off at the start of their wind down.
S - 8:45
E - 11:00
A - 11:20
S - 12:25
E - 2:30
A - 2:45
S - 4:10 - They fought going to sleep for a little while.
Woke at 5:20 - They are pretty fussy, and have been since they woke up. I am planning to try to keep them up until 7 so that their day is almost 12 hrs. Hopefully it wont get them too tired.

[Ima shel Alon]

That sounds like a very good day!
Yes, I did mean 2-2:15h A You see for yourself that the longer A helps. I didn't mean that you jump straight away to 2h because then they will get OT, obviously, but to increase it slowly by 10-15 increments every 3-4 days till you reach the A that is suitable for them. If 1.5h works for you now then stick to it, when they start to short nap again you know that it's time to increase again, perhaps to 1:40h A.
Many parents confuse OT with UT and because they are too afraid to increase the A their LOs get UT which IMO is worse than OT. UT naps are impossible to settle back to sleep and the UT NW are unbearable! I remember those 1.5h cot parties in the middle of the night

[mothergoose]

Wow that sounds great. Im hoping for similar results when I finally hit the right A time...how did it go overnight with them?x

[BareFootMomma]

Our night wasn't terrible. They went to sleep much better, and slept from 7pm until 1. After that they were up a few times (It felt like every hour, but I think it was every two, just on opposite schedules so I was up every hour) and then up at 7 for the day. They ate for 15 minutes every time the woke.

Today is a preschool day so our morning was not great. They don't sleep in the car very well so by the time we got home at 12:30 they were a mess. I put them down after a quick feed, and baby A woke at 45 minutes but I was able to get her back to sleep.

[Ima shel Alon]

There are always days that goes a bit wrong when one is out and about.

I think on the days that you are at home and you stick to the new A you should get better sleep.
Sounds already like a great improvement!

[BareFootMomma]

Quick question. What do 1 hr 15 min naps mean? One of my little girls woke up early from their first nap of the day, but it was after 1:15hr. I couldn't get her back to sleep, but she wasn't happy to be awake either.

[Ima shel Alon]

UT usually
30-35min - OT
45min-1:20h UT
For most babies, anyway.

[BareFootMomma]

Things are going pretty well! most of the time the 1:30 min A time keeps them asleep for their entire nap, but bedtime and night are not improving.

Baby B is consistently waking up 30 minutes after going to bed for the night and nothing I do will get her back to sleep until she has been awake for another 1:30-2hrs!! So I end up sitting/standing in their room Shh-patting for a LONG time. This results in ODD going to bed late because I can't just leave the baby in her crib awake (without her freaking out) to go do BT with ODD. DH works out of town most weeks so I am on my own. It if not for Baby A I probably would have resorted to just letting her CIO a while ago. I have tried putting Baby B to bed a few minutes-half an hour early, but it hasn't seemed to help because she then gets woken up by me putting Baby A to bed. Do I just let her get back up and be awake? Or do I stick with trying to get her back to sleep for the entire "A time"? Letting her get back up will get REALLY horrible when she is up to 2-2.5 hrs of A time, but I just don't know what else to do!

They are also waking more at night. They have been sleeping a good 5-6 hr stretch at first, but then they are up every couple hours until morning. Last night they only slept for a 3 hr stretch before they were up just about every 1-1.5 hrs for the rest of the night!! Luckily they are only up one at a time, but I am not getting any sleep! I feed them each time they wake up because otherwise it takes over an hour to shh-pat them back to sleep. Sometimes they nurse for 10 min and other times 30 min before falling back to sleep.

Suggestions?

[Ima shel Alon]

What are the NW like? Is there a lot of crying or they are chatting and happy?
Could you post an EASY of the last few days, I'd like to see if I can see something that can lead to the difficult BT with baby B.
When you put her 30min earlier to bed she fell asleep with no fuss? Have you tried taking her out of the room when she wakes up 30min after BT, do a very short quiet A time and then put her to bed again?
When she wakes up after 30min into BT does she wake baby A and then you pat/shh both of them?

It if not for Baby A I probably would have resorted to just letting her CIO a while ago.

Please don't do that Tracey left us with wonderful tools to help our LOs to sleep better. I know that there are hard times and periods when tiredness just makes us crazy but nowadays there is so much research that shows CIO is hurting the baby (and mother in so many cases). You can read about it more here:
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us
Video on CIO/CC and its effect on brain development

Look at what you achieved already - your days and naps are so much better!

[BareFootMomma]

What are the NW like? Is there a lot of crying or they are chatting and happy? - Most of the time I go in as soon as one makes noise, pick her up, and if she doesn't go right back to sleep I feed her and then she will go straight back to sleep. No crying, not really wanting to be awake, they just wont go back to sleep unless they are fed....or maybe I just am too tired to try for very long without giving in and feeding them.

Could you post an EASY of the last few days, I'd like to see if I can see something that can lead to the difficult BT with baby B.

This is if everything goes really well, and they take good naps (which they have for the past several days!):
Wake and E - 7:00
A - 7:20 - Wind down starts at 8:15
S - 8:30-8:35
E - 10:30
A - 11:00
S - 12:00
E - 2:00
A - 2:20
S - 3:30
E - 5:30
A - 5:45
E - 6:40 - topping them off before bed
A  - Wind down (bath, lotion, pj's, swaddle, cuddles, bed)
S - 7:00-7:10
If Baby B wakes it is at exactly 30 minute and she is usually impossible to put back to sleep for up to 2 hours.
DF at 11-11:30

When you put her 30min earlier to bed she fell asleep with no fuss? Yes, she went right to sleep.
Have you tried taking her out of the room when she wakes up 30min after BT, do a very short quiet A time and then put her to bed again? No I haven't tried that. How short would you recommend?
When she wakes up after 30min into BT does she wake baby A and then you pat/shh both of them? She doesn't usually wake Baby A, but every once in a while she does. If they both end up awake it is a very long Shh=pat battle to try to get them back to sleep by myself. Lately when Baby B wakes I take her into the next room (dark with a fan) and stay in there until she is back to sleep to avoid waking baby A.

[Ima shel Alon]

I think baby B is getting to BT OT. I say this because when you put her down 30min earlier there is no fuss and stays asleep, but if you put her 30min later you have a problem - that shows OT, I'm afraid.
Can you think of a way of putting baby B 30min earlier to bed and then putting A to sleep without waking up baby B? Perhaps you can let baby A fall asleep in another room and then transfer her to her crib? Would that work?
I just think it's a better solution than putting baby B too late to sleep, having this NW after 30min and then taking her out of the room and getting her to fall asleep somewhere else.

Are you BF? At this age it's still normal to feed at night and you are doing just fine feeding them at night. There is too much going on right now and you are doing it all by yourself (amazingly one should say!) so don't be too concerned about NF. However, I do think that their last nap, if it is 2h like you mentioned is stealing from their night sleep. Your A is also pretty short right now, so IIWY I would stretch the A a little bit, cap the last nap to be a CN and then your day should fit just the same as it does now.

[BareFootMomma]

I'm sorry, I meant to say that if she goes to bed 30 min earlier she goes right to sleep, but she still wakes up at 30 min most of the time.

Last night BT got interrupted (dog got sick in the babies' room  ) so they didn't get to sleep until they had been up almost 2 hrs! Baby B woke after 45 minutes. This time I tried immediately feeding her to see if that would get her back to sleep. It worked and she stayed asleep.

I have been thinking that their day sleep is stealing from their night sleep. I am starting to try to extend their A time, but 5 extra minutes this morning got a short nap, 30 min, from baby A. I couldn't get her back to sleep so their schedules are way off today

[Ima shel Alon]

I agree - they need more A and less sleep, but the 30min nap is totally normal on the first days you are upping A. That's why we always say to stick to the new A for 3-4 days, to let it settle. Tomorrow just stick to the increased A you gave today.

I am sorry last evening was so difficult. Boo to doggy.
Maybe you should just feed her when she wakes up after 30min on a regular basis? I know this is not a great solution, but wouldn't be better to do this than to pat/shh her for 2h? You can deal with this feed later on when things are easier, and in my experience these things just work out by themselves eventually.

[BareFootMomma]

Sounds like a plan! If they wake after 30 min and wont go back to sleep do I shorten their next A time or keep them up for another 1:35-40min? If I shorten it, how short? Lol, why is this so complicated?!

Last night wasn't great. They both woke 15 min after BT, and every 10-20 min for over an hour before they finally stayed asleep. I fed both right away when they woke, but it didn't keep them asleep. Then they were up 2.5 hrs later to eat again and every 2 hours after that for the rest of the night.

Is it ok to jump more than 5 min in A time at a time, say 10-15 min at a time? It feels like we will never catch up to what their A time should be at this age.

[Ima shel Alon]

If they wake after 30 min and wont go back to sleep do I shorten their next A time or keep them up for another 1:35-40min? If I shorten it, how short?

This is very different from baby to baby. Some babies NEED their A shortened, then I'd suggest 10-15min and some some need a full A after a short nap in order to get a good nap out of them (my DS was like that). So you would just need to try what works for them.

Is it ok to jump more than 5 min in A time at a time, say 10-15 min at a time?

That's actually what you are suppose to do, 5min increasing is only for babies who are very sensitive with their A.