Desperate dad: 7mo has endless NWs + Update: plan to cut off all solid & wean BF

[dlhson]

Hello Michaeljacknnugg,

Thanks for your answer.

We can't manage to have that feed right after wakeup even though we would love and we tried so much.

We suppose it's because the night feed at 3, 4 or 5am intervenes with it. So we tried to cut off them (BF5 and BF6). But not feeding at that time, or even reduce the time for feeding would irritate her so much that she wouldn't get back to sleep after.

On days when we successfully skip it, she still wouldn't take the early feed after wake up. We try again every 30mins without success until 9ish when she takes it and... naps on the breast. What should we do then?

[*Kara*]

Hoping you get a bit more good BFing advice, but my first thought is that she isn't having enough BFs during the day to prevent her waking overnight for them...

I *think* the recs are 4-5 BFs until about 10 months of age, during the day.  It could well be that she is favouring solids (as many LOs do), this leads to poor nutrition via solids (simply because she cannot consume enough of a varied diet quite yet) so she then wakes at night for the milk she needs to balance out her diet.

[eva026]

At your LOs age we were on 4x BF during the day and 1 or 2 at night (although I think many are just on 4x a day if they STTN).
DH did the one by bottle and I BF for the other so it wasn't that much of a hassle and seeing as my DD is also small for her age I decided to not wean the NF. She dropped both within days of each other at around 10mo. If your DD is feeding 3x at night she's prob simply not hungry in the morning. We got that too after the nights she had 2x NFs. You can try wean the NFs, I'm sure the BFing forum ladies will help with that. In our case I just skipped the morning feed if she didn't want it waited till breakfast to give her a sippy with EBM and made her cereal really runny with more EBM and got the milk into her that way. For the rest of the day the BF routine was the same: BF after nap and solids one hour later.
That said it looks like BF has become a prop and she is using it to get to sleep for naps and night time?

About your 2nd nap being short, I've noticed lots of Los start doing that about now. If her total sleep in right for her age and it's not messing up BT, maybe that's enough for her? At 9mo we were on 1x nap of 1.5h and 1x nap of 40min with a 12h night.

Take a look at this:

Gentle Removal Plan

[anna*]

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but I think this is an independent sleep thing now. For both naps and at bedtime she's falling asleep on the breast, so of course that is going to lead to more night wakings. You need to either feed her a bit earlier, or wake her after her feed, so that she goes into her cot AWAKE. Not drowsy, head resting on your shoulder, but wide awake, so that she does all the work of getting to sleep by herself.

I would absolutely not BF 3x overnight. At most I would feed at 10.30-11pm (as a dream feed, don't wait for her to wake), and 4am, but not between those times. Then I'd quickly look to drop one or other of those feeds (for me it would be the first one as I have a morbid fear of early mornings).

With some babies and night feeds, yes you can encourage them to take more/feed more often during the day and that drops the feeds at night. With others, you have to take the lead but accept that they won't feed more during the day until you drop a feed at night.

But yeh, my reading of this is that it's more about independent sleep than number of BFs or solids/BF ratio or whatever.

[ZacsMumme]

I think I agree with Anna, the falling asleep on the breast is becoming a prop, and probably leading so snacking too, she's also having too much at night, then not enough during the day. I know it's so hard, and at this ge they have more fight in them but I think making a few rules for yourselves may help ie only bf if she wakes after 4hrs after Bt then 4-5 hrs after that, not earlier. All other NW settle in any other way you can, then look at weaning the rocking or alt method you use to replace BF.

[dlhson]

Sorry I can't reply earlier. But being a dad is really the toughest job I've done. It really is. No, DD hasn't let us sleep more. And it really is cruel. My wife was close to crying (again) last night. I took charge of her when my wife couldn't stand it anymore and she was crying for 3h non-stop. Now she's crying in the other room and we're pretty sure set for another crazy night. I don't like the nights. Honestly. I don't know when it'll all stop so that three of us can really enjoy what life is meant to bring. It's so tough now. She didn't gain weight. She cried a lot. She refused food. We were just guessing, chasing and fixing 1 problem then another then another and the cycle never ends. We went to the pediatrician, to sleep psychologist, take blood test and everything but the problem is not going away. I'm really frustrated and so is my wife. We don't have anybody's help too so it even increases the difficulty. Sending her to daycare first requires us to weaning her off from breastfeeding. But she is already so low on her weight and the weaning plan is not working at all. She refused everything now. The first 4 months were so good and the next 5 months were nightmares. Seriously. Sorry with such a negative tone to this reply. I'm writing it to you when I'm really tired and frustrated now.

Will it stop someday?

[michaeljacknnugg]

Absolutely it will stop, and you are doing a great job by trying to do everything you can for her.

I think that weight gain will follow sleep so please don't try to fix everything at once. That would be too much for most people!

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs. Sleep deprivation is the worst.
First do you have anyone who can come and help out for a bit, even just 1 night or a few hours. You both need a break
Second. How are things now...what are you doing when she wakes at night? Are you still feeding to sleep for all naps and NW? - I know it's hard, but this is the prop that I think is causing so much NW and problems.

Any teeth?

[lynners]

Couldn't read this without sending you huge hugs.  It can be so much harder than you ever imagined but yes it does get better - especially when parents care as much as you two do.  I agree that sleep is the best thing to concentrate on and yes if anybody can help out for a tiny bit that would be great.  If not, it really helped my husband and I with our first to 'give each other time off'.  A couple of hours away from home doing something for yourself on your own makes a huge amount of difference and re-charges your batteries.

Good luck and everyone is here to hold your hand. 

[dlhson]

Hello all,

As usual, we always get a mental boost coming here and see your support.

We solved the independent sleep problem for 2 weeks now. She usually sleeps easily after ~15mins of storytelling on the lap (both for nap and for the night).

We also solved the short afternoon nap by increasing 2nd A time from 2:45 to 3:45 (similar to the 1st A time). Now both of her nap are about 1h or 1.5h.

But the NWs are not going away. And my wife has had it enough with the BF and we decided to wean it off. I read a lot about gradual weaning and mixed bottle and BF and we applied the tips over the last week. The thing is our DD just refuses to drink milk from either the bottle or the sippy cup (though some days she’d take ~30ml-50ml of bottle). Offering her milk through the adult cup seems is really slow and she gets bored of drinking that way after ~30ml too. The BF seems to be shortened too. The only thing that is unchanged is solid (30gfor breakfast, 70g for lunch and 40g for tea time).

Here’s our current routine for our now 9mo DD, 71cm, 6.66kg (have had a swollen gum and drooling for 3m but no other apparent sign of teething):

6:00: Wake
(Throughout the day, we tried to offer BF 1h before each meal, or 1h after but she’s not that interested, refuses or sucks for 3mins and stops. Bottle is also offered here and there, some meals some days she’d take ~30ml)
8:00: Solid 1 (~40g of cereal, or finger food e.g. bread, cheese, some days skips this)
9:45: Nap1 (A time = 3h45) for ~1h15, 1h30mins.
12:00: Solid 2 (~70g)
14:30: Nap 2 for ~1h20 (A time = 3h45).
17:00: Solid 3 (~50g)
17:45: Bath and BT routine
18:30-19:00: Put to bed
till 20:30: Up ~ 2 times, back to sleep after ~5-10mins of shushing/patting/picking up.
~23, 24:00: some days sleeps through, some days up and crying, we end up BF4 and some days she goes back to sleep, some days stays up for ~1h-2h-3h crying. Usually my DW would be exhausted after ~1.5h of comforting and I jump in for another 1.5h.
~2:00 or 3 or 4 or 5:00: Fussing, BF5. Some days up for the day after BF at 5.


So, 2 problems: NWs and not eating milk enough (hopefully from the bottle or cup).

And I definitely think they’re related. As many of you have said (especially Kara), she probably isn't having enough BFs/milk during the day to prevent her waking overnight for them.  And the introduction of bottle also reduces mom’s supply which shortens the BF time.

So, here’s our plan and I’d like to ask for your opinions.

1- Cut off all the solids during the day (except maybe a piece of cheese here and there which contains milk).

2- BF in the morning and evening. Bottle at lunch.

3- If she refuses bottle at lunch, skip it and do BF normally in the evening.

4- Do this for a week or two, so she gets back to drinking only milk and re-introduce solids when things are on the roll.

Now, our questions are:

1- As her weight is a concern, is it a good idea to drop all the solids? (almost all the baby professionals we've consulted told us to keep offering solids due to her low weight).

2- Is now a good time to wean BF off?

2- If she refuses the bottle at noon, should we re-offer it ~1h later? or just skip it and hope she’ll catch up at the next meal with BF? or should we offer the bottle even in the evening?

3- As for dropping the NFs to make place for the day feeds, now she’s up ~4 times, we offer breast ~2 times (sometimes she goes back to sleep, sometimes stay up for 1-2h crying if we don’t pick her up and sit down with her). If we drop one, and she cries, what should we do? The PUPD doesn’t work with us mentally now. Letting her cry is out of the question, plus the complaints from our neighbors. Maybe we’ll try to rock her to sleep and hope she’ll forget about being hungry?

4- Should we start weaning off by using bottle now, or go straight to the sippy cup (which she’s not used to using and just refusing and pouring milk everywhere), or even adult cup?

We're really looking forward to your advice. Thank you very much.

[*Kara*]

The absolute last thing I would do right now is attempt to move her to a bottle/sippy.  She is really not getting enough milk with BFing and it's going to be less if you stop offering the breast... the more you reduce BFing, the faster your wife's supply will drop, making the problem worse.  She really is a very tiny girl at less than 7kgs - I would still allow solids, but be sure you are offering very high calorie/high fat options (avocados are excellent in this regard as is true greek yogurt at 9% fat).

I know your wife is exhausted and totally at her wit's end.. I can assure you that many of us have been there (me included).  But until baby starts to gain weight, I don't think you have an option.

Maybe we’ll try to rock her to sleep and hope she’ll forget about being hungry?

This won't work I am afraid.  She may go back to sleep, but she will wake after a short time of an hour at most and will still be hungry.  It will just disrupt her sleep that much more than it already is, I would just offer the breast and get her back to sleep quicker with a full tummy.

Given her itty bitty stature, I would try this for a week and see how it goes:

1. cut solids like grains etc that just serve to fill her without provided dense nutrition.. offer high fat/protein options twice a day (breakfast/lunch - an hour after a BF).
2. BF on demand to get supply back up, let her drain one boob and offer the second.. next feed, start with the second and then offer the other.
3. if she wakes at night, offer a BF (both sides if she wants it).  If she is really missing the milk she needs, she will theoretically sleep a longer stretch if she is full and not just half full, KWIM?
4. Come back and let us know how things are going

Question though: what "milk" is in her sippy?  Formula, Breast milk?

[ZacsMumme]

Just a few questions ...
Does she drink water from a sippy?
How are her poops? - constipated at all?
Forgive me if I have missed this, or if you have tried it. What is you drop dinner solids and only offer BF...would she take a good feed at BT?

Hugs!

[ZacsMumme]

Also wondered about growth, I know weight gain is slow but is she growing? Height, head circ etc

[dlhson]

Hello,

Thank you for the support. Here are our answers, and some followup questions .

what "milk" is in her sippy?  Formula, Breast milk?

It's "lait de suite" that we tried. It's offered here in Switzerland for babies from 6 months old. We're not sure if it's the "formula", but definitely not breast milk . Are you suggesting we should offer EBM in the cup too?

The absolute last thing I would do right now is attempt to move her to a bottle/sippy.

We offered bottles of “lait de suite” everyday from Jan 19 till now (Feb 6) and she’s been taking 40ml-50ml/day (over a meal or two). There was a day she took 180ml. So that’s why we had thought weaning off might have a chance to work. Do you think if we went ahead and move her to sippy, she would stop eating?

cut solids like grains etc that just serve to fill her without provided dense nutrition.. offer high fat/protein options twice a day (breakfast/lunch - an hour after a BF).

Do you mean dropping solids in the evening?

We’re offering “La Vache qui rit” cheese as finger food and she takes it quite well (a piece of 20g/ day). Should we keep offering it everyday? As we hears that cheese contributes to the required milk intake total.

BF on demand to get supply back up

Can you tell me what is BF on demand? She never asks for BF and we never know if she's hungry or not. Same routine, some days she drinks at lunch, some days she doesn't for example.

Does she drink water from a sippy?

Yes. Not much lately though (refuses it or pours it out all over). She drinks more from the adult cup.

How are her poops? - constipated at all?

Not really. Her poops are usually kind of dark. Normal texture.

What if you drop dinner solids and only offer BF...would she take a good feed at BT?

No we haven’t tried it. Should we now?

I know weight gain is slow but is she growing? Height, head circ etc

Both her weight and head circ are slowly growing, going along the 1% curve from 6 months till now (9mo). They went flat from 4mo (25% curve at that time) to 6mo.

Other developmental milestones seem to be ok (sitting up, standing with support, etc.), except the teething. And another good thing is that her height goes up along the 50% curve all along from birth.

A few other points:

-For the last 2, 3 days, we decrease the amount of solids. Basically, we just give her like 20g, 30g of cheese (Kiri, La Vache qui rit) for breakfast OR lunch. Then 20g, 30g avocado after 2nd nap. The nights seem to be better. She’s up at ~8pm (down after comforting), ~10/11pm (down after BF), ~2am (BF), then up for the day ~5:30am (and a BF shortly before or shortly after).

- My mom told us that we could boil pig’s bone and use the resulted water for cooking. It should give her more fat. Is that correct?  

[ZacsMumme]

Interesting about NW and her food. I wonder if she is intolerant to something like, wheat so what were you offering before that your not now solids wise?

Mums are usually wise it can't hurt - it will just be a broth really. Nothing wrong with a broth.
I would give her water from an adult cup if she prefers that.

I see your getting bf advice on the bf board so ill leave that to be covered over there

Because she is growing (height, head) developing normally and gaining weight - even if slow I wouldn't worry too much about it. I know itis concerning as a parent, but it could just be her. I do think keeping up with milk being the main source of nutrition is important though, be it formula or breast milk.

What do you think about keeping the solids as you have them now, offering the types of foods kara mentions, high fat and protein rather than wheat based or carbs and see if things improve a little?