Author Topic: Desperate dad: 7mo has endless NWs + Update: plan to cut off all solid & wean BF  (Read 9722 times)

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Offline ZacsMumme

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I forgot to add.....GO TO BED EARLY TOO and catch up on that sleep debt of yours too (and DW as well!) :-*
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline mrssat

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Yah! Hopefully you are moving in the right direction! Its sooo nice when you get that long stretch. The other night I went to bed when my 2 went down. It did me the world of good. I would highly recommend it.
Our boy is still waking in the night for short spats, I thought it would gradually go away but it isnt...its driving us mad. He has improved though, but there is a way to go. I will be popping in to see how you guys are doing. 

Offline dlhson

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Hello all,

Thanks for your messages. Really encouraging to have support.

The last two nights were kind of mixed up. The night before yesterday, it was business as usual for us, routine NWs from 19:00 till 20:30 (every 30mins). Then at 20:30, she slept until 22:30. But then up at 22:30 for 2h playing. Sleeping back again at 0:30 till 6:30am after a Dafalgan suppositoire (on top of 2 homeopathy Viburcol during the day).

Last night, a couple of NWs with us coming in to comfort and changing diaper from 19:00 to 21:00, sleeping for 1h from 21:00 to 22:00. Up for 2h. We were too tired and brought her to our bed, managed to get her sleep from 0:30 till 7:00 but with 2-3 times breastfeeding.

We went to her pediatrician today and some conclusions are:

- The weight gain is alarming (6.2kg at 7months and a week). It means she didn't gain any weight for the last 3 weeks. Well, 25g. How could she gain any when she just keeps staying up like this all night?
- No sign of teething
- The doctor suspected either hunger or wakings due to parents. We ruled out hunger. So she advised us to use Controlled Crying because she suspected our DD is used to waking up just to play with us.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Should we start doing CC again? Honestly we don't have any other choice. We seriously tried everything. Co-sleeping only works some of the time for us. What should we be doing now? When will those concern go away for us? I just can't focus on work anymore and literally become a heavy coffee drinker. And no question, my DW is so exhausted and trapped at home all day long. :(
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 18:27:24 pm by dlhson »

Offline ZacsMumme

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Hugs...I'm confused though, how is hunger ruled out when she isn't gaining ???
I mean my DS was a terrible refluxer and never slept but gained a ton of weight through comfort feeding... I'm quite alarmed at the peds conclusion really :(

CC is not supported here at BW, Tracy believed as do we, leaving a baby to cry alone, or for periods of time we determine breaks trust. I'm going to get some more eyes on this thread for you to see what ideas people have for those NW :-*
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline jessmum46

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I'm so sorry you're having a tough time with everything at the moment, but please don't go down the route of CC.  It is not something we support in any way, shape or form as it breaks the trust that your LO has in you, and given you think she may have some separation anxiety, it is just about the worst possible thing to do because she's scared you won't come back, and you don't.  Speaking as someone who works in the field, paediatricians often recommend CC because quite honestly, they are not trained in and are not aware of gentler methods.  I too am also concerned about concluding that she is not hungry given there are significant issues with weight gain, and as Bec and Sara have suggested, would suspect some pain/discomfort with that many wakings.

I totally agree with the routine advice you have been given so far, and also the fact that the frequent wakings soon after bedtime are at least in part OT related.  If her naps are less than ideal, I would suggest you try out a super early bedtime to give her the opportunity to catch up a little.  I have put my DD to bed as early as 5.30pm on awful nap days and have always been glad when I have. 

As a fresh pair of eyes, can I just ask a few questions?  (Sorry the thread is a little long to catch up on)

Is your DD going to sleep independently for naps and bedtime at the moment?
Have you ever used shh pat or PUPD consistently for a good week or more?
How many milk feeds is she having per 24h? And how much if you are using bottles?
Have you, or are you willing to try any conventional pain relief medications to see if they help?

(((Hugs))) I really hope we can get to the bottom of this for you x

Offline dlhson

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Hunger was ruled out because we said she would wake up even 30mins after bedtime (~45mins after dinner, even big dinner). And when we turned on the light, she looks awake and seems happy, rather than showing any sign of hunger. Right now, my wife brought her on our bed and breastfeeding but she just use it as a prop rather than actually eating anything. The ped said that we should give her more food, as much as we can and as long as our LO agrees to take.

We read  Tracy's book and totally understand the trust issue as well as using props. That's why I came on here to ask for your opinions before going back to CC again. We had tried hard and used PU/PD but the LO would go to sleep only to wake up 30 mins, 1h, or even 15mins later. As for prop, we also tried hard not to use any, but it got to the point where we just couldn't hold off anymore. We would turn on the light, giving her dummy, playing with her, bringing her to our bed, walking her around.

Maybe these things just make the nights more appealing to her now?

BUT, now, she's currently on bed with us and still refusing to sleep. Isn't she supposed to feel good with us and should sleep? We really don't know what to do. She shows sign of tiredness, but don't want to get down.

Absolutely no idea! :(

Update: I've seen your question jessmum46. Here are our answers.

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Is your DD going to sleep independently for naps and bedtime at the moment?
For naps, most of the time yes. Bedtime is on and off. A week into applying EASY (more than a month ago), definitely yes. Put her to bed and away she went. Not anymore now. Some days yes, some days no (with the same routine). Since streching A times (2 weeks ago), it is more yes than no.

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Have you ever used shh pat or PUPD consistently for a good week or more?
Yes, I'd say. First, we only used shh/pat. It worked in the sense that it got her back to sleep. But over the course of a few days since starting, it no longer worked. As for PUPD, we didn't use it at the beginning but when shh/pat failed, we did use it vigorously. But as I said, she would sleep only 30mins or 1h or 2h before getting up again. We did it again and the same thing happened. Or some nights, PUPD worked after 15minns, the next time in the same night only worked after 1h or 2h of PUPD. For nearly a week I believe. And it's just getting worse and worse. So we had to turn on the light, starting using props and so on.

The real problem during the PUPD period actually was that her cry was kind of a mantra cry. We didn't pick her up, but instead let her cry, and sometimes comforted her using words. Then she slept. No need for PUPD then. But the situation was worsening over a week, then we stopped.


Quote (selected)
How many milk feeds is she having per 24h? And how much if you are using bottles?
My DW is breastfeeding. But not much now. Only in the morning and evening before bed. About 10-15mins. Occasionally during lunch too. It seems like our DD is full after all those solids.

Quote (selected)
Have you, or are you willing to try any conventional pain relief medications to see if they help?
We used Osa gel and Camillia when suspecting teething for 3 days, but no improvement so we stopped. The last 3 days, we're giving her 2 homeopathy Viburcol suppositories per day. The last 2 nights, one Dafalgan suppository before bed or midnight each.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 19:56:11 pm by dlhson »

Offline jessmum46

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Ok - waking 30 mins after bedtime is a classic sign of OT, and of course you are right that she wouldn't be hungry so soon after dinner.  That's not to say that she isn't hungry later in the night though?  It's perfectly possible that she is waking for different reasons at different points in the same night.  To give you an example, when DD was that age or slightly younger, she would wake 30mins to an hour after bedtime if she was OT, and sometimes need reassurance to resettle.  I wouldn't have dreamed of feeding her at that point, quite logically because she ate an hour ago.  But when she woke at 3/4am, I would feed her straight away as it had been well over 4h since a feed (would expect a breastfed baby to go the same or slightly longer between feeds at night as during the day).  So same night, different reasons for waking.

I notice you said you put on the light when she wakes?  I would suggest that once she is in bed for the night, you should keep the lights off totally, keep interaction to a minimum, don't say anything to her at all except for perhaps "it's time for sleep" or something similar.  Keep your voice low and boring.  If you put the lights on, get her up, bring her to your bed and play, why wouldn't she want to stay awake?  I know that it's SO hard when you are exhausted and sleep deprived, but she needs a clear message that it is night time and you need a clear plan of action for when those night wakings happen. 

Will wait for your answers and the then take it from there :)

Offline Shiv52

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Quote (selected)
How many milk feeds is she having per 24h? And how much if you are using bottles?
My DW is breastfeeding. But not much now. Only in the morning and evening before bed. About 10-15mins. Occasionally during lunch too. It seems like our DD is full after all those solids.

At 7 months milk should be the most important part of your LOs diet.  The WHO recommend at least 4 BFs per day and at thsi age most BF babies are doing 4 day time BFs and a DF.  BM contains many more calories (and the right balance of nutrients) than solids you'd be given.  So while solids may fill her up it will not sustain her.  I think I would back right back off solids and get milk intake up again as truly if she's only having 2.5 small BFs a day then truly she could be wakening in hunger and has got used to snacking so is wanting to feed more often. 

Does that make sense?





Offline michaeljacknnugg

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Hey there,

I'm sorry things are so tough for you at the moment. We went through a really bad patch when my DS would not sleep without screaming for 20 minutes first, no matter what I did - it was horrible.

Can I suggest, for day sleeps, that you and your wife use the pram or car to get her off, just so you can get a consistent routine going? At night you may have to do other things, but it would start you from a good place. I'm also suggesting this because it was how my DS learned to go to sleep by himself. I used to always be out for his first nap, and I think without this we would not have made the progress we did.

Will be back to check on you! Hang in there!
My 'little man' - kind-hearted Spirited whirlwind, 2008
My love, my everything - BabyTwo, Nov 2015

Offline jessmum46

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Totally agree with Shiv - at 7 months solids are very much for fun as they have far fewer calories than the milk.  At that age we did BF at wake up, after each nap and bedtime, and also had a 4am ish feed until nearly 8 months.  We would normally suggest that you offer solids an hour after milk to ensure that the solids aren't robbing the milk intake. 

I think if you concentrate on getting at least four good milk feeds into her during the day, and try to see solids as a bonus that may help you all a lot.  At night, given that weight gain is a big concern, I would either add in a dream feed or agree a time period e.g. 5h that if she wakes after that time, you feed her straight away before resettling.  If she wakes before that time, you remain consistent with lights off, no interaction and use shh/pat or PUPD to resettle her all the way to sleep, even if it takes you past the agreed time cutoff.  You can then feed the next time she wakes.

If your DW is only feeding twice a day at the moment you may need to supplement for the extra milk feeds with formula while she works on increasing her supply.  I will ask for some breast feeding advice for you to help with doing that :)

You say you stopped using PUPD because she woke up again after a short time.  But was she falling asleep in her crib when you did it?  It sounds like you actually had great success with it if that's the case - the waking up shortly after settling could well have been related to routine - PUPD isn't a magic way of making babies sleep if the routine is wrong.  IIWY I'd work on getting her onto an age appropriate routine as Sara and Bec have been advising you, and go back to PUPD for BT and night wakings.  If she wakes again after an hour or so, you PUPD again and do the same for all night wakings except when you are going to feed (as above).

What do you think?

Offline Shiv52

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If your DW is only feeding twice a day at the moment you may need to supplement for the extra milk feeds with formula while she works on increasing her supply.  I will ask for some breast feeding advice for you to help with doing that
Personally I think giving formula will prolong the issue as LO will not help your DWs supply to get what she needs.  I'd just offer at the times she should be feeding and then pump after for 10-15 minutes.   Feed more often without pumping if needed.  In a few days supply should pick up.  I had to cut way back on solids when DD2 was 8 months as she was taking way too much solids and milk intake had dramatically decreased.  I just upped the milk feeds for a week with very little solids and in a week we were back to normal and then very gradually offered the solids again. 





Offline jessmum46

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Good point Shiv :) Apologies dlhson - I didn't mean to confuse and certainly wasn't suggesting to supplement for an extended period.  Feeding more frequently will definitely help to up your DWs supply :)

Offline dlhson

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We owe you guys a huge ocean of hugs and thanks and whatever it is!!!!

2, 3 months waking up hundreds of times in the night just takes our brains off us. We will NOT go back to Controlled crying and will apply your advices right away.

Will get back tomorrow after getting some short sleeps before the storm tonight!

Offline Shiv52

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Hope you guys get some sleep. I know how drraining sleep deprivation can be x





Offline jessmum46

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(((Hugs))) for tonight :)