Desperate dad: 7mo has endless NWs + Update: plan to cut off all solid & wean BF

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs

[dlhson]

Hello all,

So it's been 2 nights since we started PUPD again for the NWs. I definitely think stretching A times, BF more, together with PUPD is the way to go. We woke up on average only 3 times and she slept for longer stretches the later part of the nights. How could we possibly have thought about CC?

But there are still a few details to work out:

1- 2 nights ago, only 15 mins of PUPD is enough to get her to sleep from 20:15 to 01:45. But last night, at 22:15, we needed 2h15mins of PUPD. She slept for 15mins then up again so my DW bf her and she slept until 06:30. And today (still counting), she needed 45mins of PUPD from 19:15 to 20:00. What's the reason for this variation in time?

2- She deliberately cries loud to make us pick her up. As soon as she's on my DW's shoulder, she's quiet right away. And the moment we indended to put her down, she starts again. She doesn't seem to be tired (last night). The crying just escalated. At the 2h mark, my wife was so exhausted and I jumped in but she didn't like me. Thankfully, at the 2.5h mark, she slept when our energy tanks were totally empty. Can you tell us what's the maximum time of doing PUPD (Tracy said in the book about 100 times but I don't know how long it lasted). Also, what's the best way to do it?

3- The last 2 days, my DW tried to bf her more, but she didn't eat so much (only about 5-10mins each time). After that, it's very difficult to give her the solid foods (we give it 1h later). She ate more solid the previous days (well, of course it makes sense with only 2.5 times of breastfeeding/day). Is there anyway to make her eat more breastmilk, or formula? If possible, we can give formula because we can control how much she consumes/day. Her weight is already too low now.


The EASY routines for the last 2 days are:

10/12 (the day when we went to the pediatrician. Learn about her weight problem. And be told to use CC. Got your advice at night about using PUPD instead of CC)

07:00: wakeup, 60ml of formula, 20ml of vegs
10:00: nap 1 for 1.5h
11:30: 120ml of fish + califlower
14:00: nap 2 for 45mins
14:45: went to the ped
16:00: 30ml of mango
17:00: bath
17:45: 140 ml of cereal, 10ml of mango
18:30: bed.
19:30: up. We brought to our bed, BF but just suck it for fun. then crying for 30mins.
20:15: After getting your advice, we used PUPD. Only 15mins and there she slept.
01:45: Up, BF and slept until 07:15!!!


11/12 (The plan come up from your advice: Try to up breastfeeding, cut back on solid, use PUPD, and BF at night if up after 4h since last feed)

07:00: wakeup, only 3mins of breastfeeding, so we give 90ml of formula, 10ml of vegs
09:30: nap 1 (no crying) for 1h
10:30: 3mins of BF, refuse formula, 150ml of fish+califlower
12:30: nap 2 (no crying) for 1h
14:00: 65g yogurt
16:00: nap 3 (on stroller) for 50mins
17:00: 20ml of cereal
18:30: bath + 15mins of BF
19:30: put down to bed but cry, PUPD 10mins.
22:15: cried, PUPD 2h and 15mins. The volume escalated. Stopped as soon as we picked up. Slept at 0:30 for 15mins. Then up again. So we BF (These 3h were tough. We were close to breaking down in tears again due to exhaustion. But thankfully she slept at the 2.30 mark before up 15mins later and we BF.)
01:00: Slept until 6:30.


12/12 (today, try to up breastfeeding, but she doesn't eat much, just kind of on and off, and also refuses solid).
06:30: wakeup, only 10mins of BF
07:30: 120 ml of cereal
09:30: nap 1 for 2h
11:30: bf for 3mins, then 60ml of formula, then only 10g of solid vegs
14:55: nap 2 for 45mins on the stroller
15:35: wakeup
16:00: BF for 10mins, then 20ml of mango, BF for 10mins.
17:00: bath, then 10mins of BF, 20ml of saumon + sweet potato, 5mins of BF
18:10: put to bed, cried 5mins then slept.
19:15: up, cried. We PUPD for 45mins. Now sleeping.

Please tell us how we can improve on this routine? It's definitely a sign of improvement the last 2 nights or so. Thank you very much for all this support and knowledge! We're looking forward to your advice and sort this out asap. We just don't have much energy left anymore.

[becj86]

10mins at the breast can be a full feed - even 5mins can, if baby is efficient. Is she now BFing 4x during the day? One or two days of BFing more may not be enough to get her sleeping without needing a feed or two, your DW's supply may need increasing, so give it a good few days as you would a growth spurt, because that's essentially what you're wanting your DW's body to experience, extra feeding from baby will increase supply but it takes time. Its not a bad thing that she's taking less solids after she's had her milk - it means she's eating a good amount of milk

[jessmum46]

Just to echo what Bec has said - my DD can be done a whole feed in 4-5 mins

[katie80]

Hi there, just jumping in to offer some support with PUPD.   I admit I haven't read the whole thread, just about the last page or so, so if I repeat something or miss something, please forgive me.

What's the reason for this variation in time?

I think what you're experiencing is very normal.  There can be quite a variation in the time it takes to resettle the first few days of using any sleep training technique.  That being said, I do think there are some routine issues to check out as well. The night you did the 2.5hr session, she had had three naps each totaling about an hour.  While that amount of day sleep is good for a 7mo old, having it spread that way through the day might have made it tougher for her to settle when she woke and you got more of a fight.  But, it could have just been her protesting as well.   I'm so glad you got her to sleep before feeding though, that was a victory in itself.  Good job for not giving up! .

It sounds like you've been working on routine with some of these lovely ladies and it looks like 3hr A time suits her pretty well from the pattern I see in just the last few days.  I'd stick as much to that as possible while you're doing PUPD. I also wonder if you did the pm nap in her crib rather than in the stroller, she might start sleeping a more full nap for you and be less OT at BT.  I'm all for APOPing in the stroller when needed, but often at this age LOs will only sleep one full sleep cycle in the stroller and that won't really help your cause, unless she's had short naps other times in the day and you just have to get something more.  Are you using PUPD at nap time as well?  The more you use it to get her to sleep, the quicker she will start to settle herself both at the beginning of sleep time and when she wakes at night.

2- She deliberately cries loud to make us pick her up. As soon as she's on my DW's shoulder, she's quiet right away. And the moment we indended to put her down, she starts again. She doesn't seem to be tired (last night). The crying just escalated. At the 2h mark, my wife was so exhausted and I jumped in but she didn't like me. Thankfully, at the 2.5h mark, she slept when our energy tanks were totally empty. Can you tell us what's the maximum time of doing PUPD (Tracy said in the book about 100 times but I don't know how long it lasted). Also, what's the best way to do it?

This sounds to me like she might be getting a little too comfy upon the PU.  At this age, when you pick up you really don't hold for long.  You will basically say your sleep phrase and then put her right back down and try to settle her in the crib.  Tracy did recommend that one parent should carry a PUPD session through to the end as switching in the middle can be confusing and stimulating for the LO, but thankfully that wasn't your experience that night, just something to be aware of.  As for a maximum time, at BT and during a NW, there isn't one.  You go until they fall back to sleep.  At nap times, we recommend that you try for 45min, take a 15-20min break if she's not close to sleep, and then try again until the end of nap time. 

I hope this helps.  Please let me know if you have other questions and I'll try to answer them.  You are doing a really great job, it's tough work for sure, but you will feel really good about it all once you are all sleeping better. (((Hugs)))

[dlhson]

Hello,

I think we're on the right track eventually after such a long time. Only about 3 times waking up, the longest was 2h. This is a big achievement for us three. Thanks a lot for your help.

Here's the routine for the last 2 days.

12/12 (Very good day, up only twice at night. During the day, we tried to up breastfeeding, but she didn't eat much, just kind of sucking casually, not so actively, and also refuses solid).
06:30: wakeup, only 10mins of BF
07:30: 120 ml of cereal
09:30: nap 1 for 2h
11:30: bf for 3mins, then 60ml of formula, then only 10g of solid vegs
14:55: nap 2 for 45mins on the stroller
15:35: wakeup
16:00: BF for 10mins, then 20ml of mango, BF for 10mins.
17:00: bath, then 10mins of BF, 20ml of saumon + sweet potato, 5mins of BF
18:10: put to bed, cried 5mins then slept.
19:15: up, cried. slept after PUPD for 45mins.
00:30: up, breastfed, slept again
05:30: up for the day.


13/12 (Up too early, Good routine during the day but Not so good night)
05:30: wakeup, 5mins of BF
06:00: 20ml salmon + sweetpotato and 20ml of formula
08:30: nap 1 for 2h
10:30: up, BF 5mins, 10ml cereal, 40ml formula
12:50: nap 2 for 1.5h
14:45: up, BF 2mins, 30ml banana, 20ml formula
18:10: put to bed, slept
19:15: up, slept after 20mins of PUPD
02:00: up, BF
03:00: up, 45mins of PUPD
05:30: up for the day

14/12 (Up too early, messed-up routine, overtired and undertired?)
05:30: wakeup, BF 2mins, 30ml salmon + sweet potato, 20ml formula, BF 5mins
07:45: nap 1 (after only 2h15mins since she looked so tired.)
09:00: up, went to the sleeping psychologist
11:30: nap 2, sleeping in the stroller in the doctor's office
12:00: up, BF 2mins
14:00: BF 2mins, 80ml formula
14:30: put to crib for nap but cried 15mins, brought on the stroller, nap 3 for 2h
16:45: up
17:30: 60ml cereal, 20ml formula
18:45: put to bed but cried hard, comforting, putting DW's head next to hers
19:45: slept after 1h of comforting
20:35: up, slept after comforting
(counting)

Now, we do have a few questions still.

1- When the afternoon nap didn't last long (~45mins) or when it was too early in the day, we put her to bed at night earlier to avoid OT (e.g. on 12/12 and 13/12). However, this led her to wake up for the day too early, at 5:30 in the morning. (maybe she had enough of night sleep?) What should we do then? Should we just let her get up (as we did the last 3 days), or should we do PUPD to keep her on bed until morning?

2- She's not actively sucking breast, and also not eating solid. We know that it might take a few days for DW's body to get up to speed, but we're also worrying about the weight. Can you tell us if the amount of food in the last 3 days is enough?

3- Today, 14/12, we had to go to the sleeping psychologist (we booked this appointment a couple of weeks ago before getting helpful advice from BWs) so the day is messed up. Especially, the 3rd nap in the afternoon lasted until 16:45. So is it correct that when put to bed, the LO cried because she's UT? Then she's up 45mins later because she's OT of the long day? I've learned to have this educated guess after reading so much from this forum

4- Katie80, you said "While that amount of day sleep is good for a 7mo old, having it spread that way through the day might have made it tougher for her to settle when she woke and you got more of a fight.  But, it could have just been her protesting as well.". Can you elaborate a bit as to why having the naps spread out make it tougher for LO to settle?

We went to the sleeping pyschologist today, but again, I don't learn any new things that I haven't found here with your help. She doesn't know about Tracy's method, but she also suggests a mild approach (walking in and out to comfort) and told us to BF at night if 4h passed from the last feed.

Thanks again and hope to hear from you soon. Take care!  Wish you and your family a super happy weekend! It's snowing here and we can't go skiing because of this cute, smily but just-not-sleeping-well baby

[*Kara*]

2- She's not actively sucking breast, and also not eating solid. We know that it might take a few days for DW's body to get up to speed, but we're also worrying about the weight. Can you tell us if the amount of food in the last 3 days is enough?

She doesn't actually need food... BM and formula are enough for her at this age... solids are just for extra fun.  I do see that you are intermixing offering though... solids with BF/formula... I would stop this as it may effect what she takes from the breast.  Babies will often hold out for solids at this age   You want to do a BF, then solids an hour later... an ounce or two is enough in terms of solids at this age... and twice a day would be plenty.  The majority of her nutrition should be from milk - not solids.  Too much solid food will cause her to wake at night for milk as she needs the balanced nutrition it provides.  Also, stick to solids that aren't going to "fill her up" too much... lots of veggies/fruits with a bit of carbs/protein is fine.

I also do wonder if your wife's supply is suffering given that you are still offering a fair amount of formula.  Honestly, the 20 mls of top up is a very small amount... I would skip that and offer the breast a touch sooner to build supply.

[katie80]

1- When the afternoon nap didn't last long (~45mins) or when it was too early in the day, we put her to bed at night earlier to avoid OT (e.g. on 12/12 and 13/12). However, this led her to wake up for the day too early, at 5:30 in the morning. (maybe she had enough of night sleep?) What should we do then? Should we just let her get up (as we did the last 3 days), or should we do PUPD to keep her on bed until morning?

Have you tried to feed her like a NW, rather than the first feed of the day and put her back down right after?  It is going to be a tough time to try PUPD to resettle her as she's had about 10.5hr of sleep, but it is on the low side.  I think getting your routine ironed out should help this as well.

I agree completely with Kara on question 2.

3- Today, 14/12, we had to go to the sleeping psychologist (we booked this appointment a couple of weeks ago before getting helpful advice from BWs) so the day is messed up. Especially, the 3rd nap in the afternoon lasted until 16:45. So is it correct that when put to bed, the LO cried because she's UT? Then she's up 45mins later because she's OT of the long day? I've learned to have this educated guess after reading so much from this forum

Yes, I think that is probably a fair assessment.  Sometimes you just have to do your best on those messed up days though and that's what you did.

4- Katie80, you said "While that amount of day sleep is good for a 7mo old, having it spread that way through the day might have made it tougher for her to settle when she woke and you got more of a fight.  But, it could have just been her protesting as well.". Can you elaborate a bit as to why having the naps spread out make it tougher for LO to settle?

I think this is similar to question 3.  At 7-8 mo, LOs do best with two solid sleeps a day and good A time spread between them.  So, she had 3hr of nap time that day, but because it was spread out in smaller chunks (that were still basically an hour long), she might not have had the drive to keep sleeping when she woke up shortly after BT.  Similar to yesterday, when she had the late 2hr nap.

It sounds like things are progressing well.  I'm sure you'll be back on the slopes quicker than you think!

[dlhson]

Hello all,

It's been 2 weeks since our last update. It's been so busy with the year-end schedule and everything. But most importantly, we want to hold it on for some time before FINALLY DECLARING A VICTORY!!!

WE'VE GOT IT

Well, of course that is for now, since I think teething is definitely coming around soon. But the last 10 days have been by far the best nights we've ever had since a LONG LONG time. On Xmas day, she gave us the best gift ever by waking up only 4 times, AND going straight back to sleep after only 5 mins of comforting (putting our hand on her back and shushed). This pattern went on until New Year Eve, when she gave us an even more wonderful gift, starting passing the night with only 2 times up for BF!!!


HOW DID WE GET THERE: THE FIRST LAP

Definitely not easy. We were seeing the pediatrician once a week for 3 weeks straight since her weight is a big concern. Unsurprisingly, the peds urged us to give more solid food and told us to sacrifice the nights. Meanwhile, the sleeping psychologists told us to use the walkin/walkout method.

But we were keen on using the plans sketched out here with your help:
- Working on an appropriate A times
- BF more. This took a few days for DW's supply to be back.
- solid is important for her weight but secondary.
- Get rid of the formula top-up
- Be consistent with PUPD

Now these got us some good results reported in my last post. But the nights were still very heavy for us since we got some good nights (i.e. 3, 4 NWs with varying length, some a few mins, some a couple of hours) MIXED with some bad nights (i.e. 5, 6 NWs, about 2 of which on the longer side of length). And the TIMING for A time and bedtime was not easy at all. We counted to the minutes. But even on a good routined day, there were still NWs, as early as 30mins into the night.

The only very positive thing is that DD still gained 200g despite us decreasing the solids. So that gave us more confidence to stick to our plan (wrt decreasing solids).


HOW DID WE GET THERE: STRETCHING EVEN MORE A TIME AND THE SHUSH/PAT REDISCOVERED

On 21 Dec, looking back at our logs, we saw that she had 1h10mins nap in the morning. This clue, together with the early wake-up for the day (~5:30, 5:45), made us decide to stretch her A time even more. She had been at 3h A time this week, so we pushed it to 3h15, 3h20, then 3h30. This seemed to eliminate the early wakeup for the day, but not the other NWs.

On Xmas night, at 22:45, my wife was exhausted and decided to leave the room after 1.5h PUPD (she had been up 4 times earlier, ~10mins each). So I jumped in. Normally DD didn't like my PUPD (she stops crying as soon as she's on my DW's back, not mine), so I said to myself, let me do shush/pat. This had mixed results before but there was no more option for me. I tried to pat her on the back by turning her on her side. She didn't like it and cried even louder. So I decided to just put my hand under her back while shushing. This SURPRISINGLY WORKED like a charm. She kept silence and after some struggling went back to sleep on her own after 45mins. I did it once again at 05:45 and it STILL WORKED!!!

No need to say, we applied this method the next night (25/12). She went back to sleep right away after just about 5 mins for every NWs. Over the next few days, she learned to go back to sleep even with only the shushing (~2 mins). Even she was still up ~4 times / night, they were mostly very brief. WHAT A RELIEF!


THE VICTORY LAP

We tried to hold ourself back and not get over excited during these days. But on New Year Eve, she passed the night with only 2 times waking up for BF (at 0:00 and 5:00). Even when the firecrackers were all over the place, no crying whatsoever.

The last 2 days, even when she didn't have a great routine during the day (short nap in the morning or afternoon, or too long A time before bed, ~3h), she would still make it at least till 23:00.


THE CURRENT ROUTINE

06:00: up
08:00: solid (~20ml)
09:00: BF
09:30: nap 1 for 1.5h (1st A time: 3h30)
11:00: up
12:30: solid (~100ml)
13:30: BF
13:45: nap 2 for 30mins, 1h or 1.5h (2nd A time: 2h45)
16:00: solid (~20ml)
17:00: bath, BF
17:45: bed (3rd A time: 3h)
22:00/23:00/24:00: up, fussing, BF, back to sleep
03:30/04:00/05:00: up, fussing, BF, back to sleep


WHAT'S NEXT

Now, we're definitely happy with what we and our DD achieved so far. But we're not sure whether the night BFs are a good thing to do? My DW doesn't mind getting up twice a night for 15mins. And we need to bring DD's weight back to track so that's why we still gave solids (but we just give up to a limit).

Can you tell us if we should keep on this routine? or maybe we should cut off those BFs and do it in daytime instead?


HOPE FOR EVERYBODY

To every moms and dads out here: For 2 months, we were literally crazy and couldn't function properly. Every night was a timed bomb waiting to be fired. Even when we started working on our plan, things still didn't improve the way we wanted them to be.

BUT, HANG IN THERE. Keep on asking the lovely ladies here, keeping a detailed log of the timing and everything your LOs (and you) do, reflect on it and you'll see potential solutions.

It'll all be OVER one day!!! And you'll be over the moon seeing our LOs smiling, playing, learning new tricks during the day, and sleeping through the night!!!

I know it, because we've been through it!!!

Good luck and take care!!!

[*Kara*]

Congrats!!!

I do see that you are doing solids, then BF an hour later... really, this should be the other way around.  Milk first until much closer to her first birthday   She will get more from the milk and if she doesn't get enough to meet all her needs, she will wake at night for it.  As for weaning the NFs, I would make an attempt now for sure.  Start by reducing the amount of time that she nurses for the second feed (since it will interfere with her taking a good feed as soon as she wakes for the day).  First night or two, just let her nurse as normal to find out how long she BFs.  Reduce that time by a minute or two every couple of days... this should leave her more hungry for a BF as soon as she wakes in the morning.

Hope this helps!

[ZacsMumme]

Wow I just want to say WELL DONE! It's so hard sleep training and tiring, and sometimes such a slow process. You and your wife are such a great team

I had a tear in my eye reading your wonderful post : ) happy new year!

[katie80]

Well done all of you!!   What a great update to read!  You are true Baby Whisperers, finding the perfect technique to calm your LO.  Keep up the good work!

And ditto to all that Kara said, re: the feeds.

[brummum]

I just want to say what a wonderful father and husband you are. Your wife is very lucky to have such a supportive and proactive person by her side. Well done and I'm so glad things are improving for you. Enjoy those zzzz's!

[dlhson]

Hello all,

Thanks everyone for your support and encouragement. Unfortunately, we've still got work to do

The night I posted the "we've got it" message, it was back again. And it's been going on for 3 weeks now. What else can we say but disappointed? The positive thing is it's less bad

THE "WORKING" ROUTINE:

For 10 days around Xmas, the following routine was working for us (only some brief fussings at night).

6:00: Wake
7:00: Solid1
8:00: BF1
9:15-9:30 (A time = 3h15-3h30): Nap1 for 1.5h
12:00: Solid2
13:00: BF2
14ish (A time = ~2h45-3h): Nap2 for ~1h15, 1h30
15:30: BF3 and/or Solid
17:15: Bath
17:30: A bit of solid (if no solid at 15:30) and BF3/4
18:00: Sleep
21, 22, 23 or 24:00: BF5
01, 03 or 05:00: BF6
06:00: up.

But it no longer worked starting that night (hmm, I said we didn't want to get too excited, for a reason).

The next few days, following your advice from before, we tried to switch the BF and Solid time, giving BF 1h or 1.5h before solid. But it didn't work out. Hit and miss really for 3 weeks now.


THE CURRENT ONE

Now, she is on 2/3 solids a day with 3-4 breastfeeds/daytime and 1-3 bfs/night.

This is our routine:

6:00: Wake
7:30: Solid1 (~50g, some days skips this)
9:30: BF1. Sleeping on breast (new)
9:45: Nap1 (A time = 3h45) for ~1h10 or 1h20mins.
12:00: Solid 2 (~70g)
13:45-14ish: BF2. Sleeping on breast (new). Nap 2 for 30-45mins. (even though we tried all these A times = 2h45, 3h00, 3h15, we can't extend it).
16:00: Solid 3 (~30g)
17:00: Bath
18:00: BF3. Sleeping on breast (as always for 2 months).
18:30-21:00: Up ~ 2 times, back to sleep after ~5-10mins.
~23, 24:00: BF4
~2:30, 3, 4, 5:00: Fussing, BF5
04:30, 05:00: Some days fussing and crying for 1.5h, then up for the day. Or even a BF6 when we can't get her to sleep (with mixed results)


The problems we currently have are:

1) Wakes after 30, 45mins into Bedtime, and a couple more time from 18:00 till 21:00.

2) Some extended NWs at around 3:00 or 4:00 that last for ~1h or 1.5h. Some days she's back to sleep after BF, some days fussing for ~1h then sleep, some days fussing until ~5:30 and we let her out.

2b) We tried to cut off the BF5 and BF6 (~2,3,4,5) as it prevents us from giving an early feed first thing in the morning. But not feeding, or even reduce the time for feeding would irritate her so much that she wouldn't get back to sleep after.

On days when we successfully skip it, she still wouldn't take the early feed after wake up. We try again every 30mins without success until 9ish when she takes it and... naps on the breast. What should we do then?


3) We can't manage to get an afternoon nap longer than 45mins anymore for 2 weeks now. The morning nap still works (sleeping on breast) after A time = 3h45mins. But for the afternoon, we tried different A time (2h30, 2h45, 3h, 3h15) to no avail.

Maybe it's time for a 2-1 transition? or should we extend the 2nd A time to 3h45mins too?


4) For the last week, a bad pattern has emerged. My DW has to BF to get her down now for the naps. It was not like this before.

Also, the bedtime has always been sleeping on the breast for 2 months. So we'd like to fix all those up.

Our plan is to finished the feeding 30mins before BT. Then sit with her calmly on the couch for 10mins. Then putting her to bed with the lights still on. Reading, singing lullaby for 10mins.  Then turn off the lights and go away even if she's still fully awake.

We tried it today but she cries so much so thought we'd ask for your opinions. Is it time to do this? If she cries when we leave, what should we do? (shush/pat? PUPD didn't seem to suit us very well).

I was wondering if we can use any of these techniques: Teaching independent sleep - methods


5) We discussed and thought it's probably time to wean LO off BF gradually. My DW will keep BFding her 1 (or 2) time/day. We'd like her to be a bit more independent so we can schedule daycare and my DW can think about going back to work. Part of it is also because we never know how much she eats and during the night, that's really frustrating.

We plan to start the midday and evening feed by a bottle, and top it up with breastmilk.


What would your advice be for us please? Do you know why she wakes like this during the night?  the early NWs? The afternoon nap? The sleeping on breast? Is now the ideal time for weaning?

I would appreciate some help in this.


Some notes:
-She's 8.5mo now. 71cm, and only 6.6kg.
-She's not teething yet.

[michaeljacknnugg]

I'm hoping you'll get some more experienced eyes on this and can't answer everything for you - but the thing that stands out for me is that she's not having a feed when she first wakes in the morning. Is there a reason for this? It should help her take in more calories and possibly less solids for breakfast.

My guy is nearly five now so my memory is sketchy, but I think we started off scheduling breast feeds at what could be regarded as morning and afternoon snack time, plus first thing in the morning and last thing at night. The 'snack time' feeds could then be replaced by a solid snack plus a soft spout cup of milk and that made them relatively easy to drop.