7.5 mo spirited baby with high A time, how do I adjust EASY?

[jennfullwood]

Katherine,

Thank you so very much. I'm going to take a deep breath now and calm down.

Is he an independent sleeper?

Yes, very independent. He is a great sleeper. No pacifier, no rocking or holding to go to sleep, put in crib fully awake, never uses the swing for naps and he takes great lengthy naps if A time is long enougy...only use the swing at night for these emergencies as I call them, which are frequent now. I hate that I have done that, but not sure what else to do.

Any teething at the moment?

Yes, he is getting his first bottom tooth. I noticed it barley coming in last week. He started getting lots of poopy diapers (5-6 a day, and a couple at night). Normally only pooped once a day after his morning bottle, so this was a red flag and I knew it was either a new food (which I hadn't added anything that week) or probably teething. Now I can feel corner of tooth barely. But he has been waking like this long before this tooth....so I'm not really sure how much the tooth has to do with it. He has still been taking his naps through the day without problem during the teething too. Except when he short naps with not enough A time.

Any reflux?

When he was very little, he was medicated for some reflux. Never had a problem with it at night. Now he has grown out of it and no medication since 5 months old, so not an issue.


How old is he now?

He will be 8 months on Dec. 19th

How are you currently resettling at NWs if you have to intervene?

I try to let him be for as long as I can so he will go back to sleep on his own. I let him cry until it's the "I need you" cry, then I go in to him. He will go back to sleep usually if early in the night or if he is tired enough, or so that is what I have thought. On these wakeful nights though, he will not go back to sleep. I go in and try to put my hands on his back, rub his back. He normally sleeps on his belly but when he is awake and crying, he rolls to his back and chews on his fingers. I try to roll him back on his belly and hold him there, but usually he fights me. I will give pacifier to see if it will calm him. Again, if he is tired/or relaxed enough, the pacifier will calm him, but he will be awake again shortly within the hour. If I pick him up, it escalates his crying and wakes him up completely. He will not let me rock or sit with him, he will not fall asleep in bed with me. If I can't resettle him, and I will try for up to an hour or 1.5hours, I will put him in the swing out of frustration/desperation. He needs sleep. I know something is wrong if he doesn't resettle himself. This past week and a half, any time he wakes up, he has been pooping too, which just wakes him up more. I really do not feel that he has been waking to poop, but just pooping because he was awake.


Is he pulling to stand yet?

Yes, he has been pulling up and standing since he started crawling at 6 months. He cruises now too and is starting to stand on own. Hit all milestones very early.

Have you ever used shh pat with him?

I did when he was younger, without much success. It really seemed to make him more hyper and agitated. It definitly does not work now as it works him up to screaming.


I hope this helps.


So far today, here is his EASY:

7am- I woke him from swing. He seemed happy all morning surprisingly, started getting a bit fussy around 2.5 hours A time and yawned a couple of times. I tried to put him down but he was having none if it. I thought it may have still been a little too early.

10am - Tried again at three hours A time and he went down, but required the pacifier. I gave it becuase I thought he was OT and I just wanted to get him asleep. Normally, he only needs the pacifier if he is not quite tired enough. Only slept for 1 hour.

11:00- woke up, odd timing for WU. Normally would be 40 min or 1 h 10 min for UT nap. Happy at first, then became very fussy and clingy withing about 15 min. I fed bottle and gave more ibuprofen and within 30 minutes he was playing happily and seemed to feel fine. Not sure whether he woke from UT or teeth...probably teeth. But he did seem like he wasn't quite ready to go down for nap. So not sure. He played happily for the 3 hour A time. Still wasn't showing tired signs at 3 hours, but put him down anyway.

2:00- went down fairly easily for 2nd nap after 3 hours A time after short one hour nap. I tried at 2.75 hours, but he wasn't ready. He wrestled around a bit, but no crying and went to sleep on his own.  It's going on 1.5 hours and he is still asleep.


So that's where we are at now. Since he is taking a full nap this afternoon, I will just watch him closely tonight as I know he may get tired sooner with less sleep last night.

I know it is late where you are at. I will update tomorrow and let you know how the night goes. Thank you again for your help!! I am ready to help my baby be able to sleep like I know he can.


OH! P.S. :  I called his pediatrician this morning and found out I was not giving him as much ibuprofin as he needed. He is a big, tall boy...off the charts in height and weight. The nurse said I should be giving him a larger dose than I have been based on his current weight of 24 lbs. So perhaps he was in pain last night with a too low dose of med. When I gave him his meds again this morning, I used the new dosage and he has played happily and is napping well right now. Crossing my fingers, perhaps tonight will be a better night. I wonder now if these long nights of wakings could have been teething all this time, even though he is just now getting first tooth? They really do seem related to his routine though, as I always see a huge difference in them when I increase his A times.

Ahhhh, too many variables to know for certain I guess.

Thanks I really appreciate your help.

[jessmum46]

The fact that he is an independent sleeper is great   although it doesn't feel like it, it really does make things easier.  How was the night?

The first nap yesterday may have been UT but the fact he got cranky so soon after doesn't sound like it.  We get 55min or 1h naps when discomfort is an issue.  Something in the back of my mind tells me reflux can flare up around this age even if previously well controlled but I will get back to you on that when I've had chance to ask around.

Will look forward to an update

[jennfullwood]

Hi Katherine,

Here is an update of our day yesterday and night last night (I'm typing this at almost 7am my time):


Woke- 7:00 (I woke him in the swing from previous night of NW's)

A- 3 hours ( I thought he would need a short a time since he was up frequently the night before)

S - 10:00 - 11:00 (didn't seem tired, he fought going down, cried, standing up in crib, had to use paci, which again, has always meant UT. He goes down perfectly if he is tired enough, no paci. But I thought maybe this time he was fighting bc of OT from the night before, so I gave paci and finally he crammed his head in the corner of the crib and settled -  then he wakes one hour later!? This was an odd WU time. Normally his UT naps are 40 min or 1 H 10 min. He woke happy, but it could have been because of teeth , bc within 15 minutes of waking he was clingy, crying, wouldn't let go of my leg. I dosed with ibuprofen (last does had been about 3am) and within 30 minutes he was happy and playing. I think it was a mixture of teeth and UT.

A - 3 H (still trying to keep it on the low end since I thought maybe he woke early from first nap bc of teeth)

S - 2:00-4:00 (He went down for nap fairly easily, just a little wrestling around, no paci needed. I actually had to wake him here at 2 hours. I normally would never let him sleep this long on the PM nap, but trying to catch him up on sleep)

Bedtime - 8:10 ( I tried putting him down as early as 7:15, but he was nowhere near tired. Then tried at 7:30, 7:45, and 8:00. He was visibly not tired. He will stand up in crib and bounce and cry if I don't get him. He wanted to play, bounce and laugh still at 8:00. Never again will I allow 2 hour PM nap! Finally at 8:10, he went down with paci. I still don't think he was quite ready bc I had to give paci to settle. Normally would just lay down without a peep.)

I didn't time the meds right. I gave ibuprofin at 6:30, thinking I may try early BT at 7:15 and I wanted it to be in his system. So meds wore off early morning.

He woke at 1am crying. I waiting a bit but he was not going to resettle and crying was escalating and I gave him more ibuprofin. He cried for a full hour and it did sound like he was in pain (I was trying to hold him during this time. I have to hold him standing. If I sit with him he pushes off me and rolls over and suchl, and he is 24 lbs, so very heavy) Finally I could tell meds were helping at 1 hour mark, but he was still worked up. I put him in the crib bc I could tell I was agitating him by holding him, and I just rubbed his back. He kept crying on and off for 30 min, but he was trying to settle. Finally 2:30 he was asleep.

He slept till 6:15am and woke. Was not crying. When he does this EW, he will not go back to sleep on his own, ever. I gave paci and  rubbed back and it seemed like he was going back to sleep but then he started his little grunts and pooping. Uggggg. This pooping at night started with his teething.  He was now sitting up in his crib looking for me wide awake. I had to change him and of course now he is wide awake, flopping legs and flailing arms while I'm changing him. I put him back in crib and he immediatley stands up and starts bouncing holding on to rails and laughing. It's now 6:45am.

I always go back to the swing out of desperation. I couldn't imagine starting day day before 7am on about an 8 hour night. So I put him in the swing and I think I will let him sleep until 7:30am, maybe even 8. I really do not know what is the right thing to do.

I wish I would have gone in and given him more meds before they wore off, but he sleeps on stomach with his head in the corner of the crib. It would wake him and I was afraid to start the NW all over again. I think tonight I will give him meds and just try to get him back to sleep. Better than 1.5 hours of screaming.

Still though, a better night than before. It's so difficult to tell right now what is teething and what is not. Makes it hard to know what to do routine wise. I guess I just have to wait out the teething. Last night was the first night that he cried a painful cry though. His NW the previous night were not crying, just restless and like he couldn't get to sleep but seemed like he wanted to sleep. Most of the time though his NW's seem UT to me.

Sorry this is a lot to read  Maybe you can make sense of some of it! I did post on the spirited board. I think they may take a look at this thread too.

[jennfullwood]

We were writing our lasts posts at the same time! 

[jessmum46]

*if* it is the teeth, the pain tends to build up in 3 day increments (or so I'm told), and the once the tooth actually cuts through the pain is significantly less.  I think you're handling things just fine and if it were me I would let him sleep in until 8ish if he will - it sounds like he needs to catch up.  You may need to cut the pm nap short to get him to bed at a normal time if that's the case.  There's no point in letting him catch up in the morning then taking it away from him in the evening with a later bedtime.  Fingers crossed for today for you x

[becj86]

With DS, he didn't do well with offering sleep frequently in the hopes of catching the window. I could have one unsuccessful try then the next one I had to be sure he was tired or he'd just fight sleep for hours, so I usually shot for slightly OT and just dealt with the resettling.

I'd really caution against cutting the A time after a bad night unless you're dealing with obvious chronic OT - not sure you are from what you're writing Could overstimulation be an issue with these short naps? 1hr would be a weird time to wake due to OS though Your little fellow is indeed a puzzle, Jenn

[jennfullwood]

Hi Katherine,

OK, so here was yesterday/last night.

Wake - 7:30am - he woke up himself in swing, seemed happy enough and just ready to get up even after short night

S - 10:50-12:30 - I put him down after 3 H 20 min and he went down fine. He played happily during that time. Could have easily made 3 H 30 min I think...now after reading your last post, I probably should have kept him up. But he slept well. And another mistake I made...I actually woke him at 12:30pm , he would have kept sleeping. But I just kept thinking since he got up late, I wouldn't have time to fit in PM catnap and make bt on time if I did not.  I guess I should have let him sleep. Argggg

S - 4-4:45 (capped nap)

B - 8:15pm     This was a struggle again. And yes, I agree. I don't think he does well with multiple trys of putting him down which I feel might be the problem. He seemed like he was starting to get cranky about 1.5 hours after his catnap, but also, it was time for meds again and he was chewing everything and very clingy so I thought also it could be teeth. He has only become clingy since he started teething. Normally he really doesn't want me...just wants to be busy playing. I gave meds and he became much happier and playing again in a few minutes...so I'm not sure. I skipped the bath last night thinking maybe OS, and tried to put him down at 7:15pm but he just didn't seem ready to go down. He was so smiley and happy and bouncing around wanting to play. I tried every fifteen minutes until 8:15, which I pretty much MADE him down down with paci. That was at 3.5 A time since catnap of 45 min. I cannot see how he wasn't exhausted. 

So nightime....I gave meds again at midnight. It was a wrestling match, but he never opened his eyes and had no problem going back to sleep.

Woke at 4:20am. I left him for 10 min but wasn't going to resettle. When I went in, he was standing in crib but wasn't really a pain cry. Just his normal AM waking. Checked diaper, no poop, gave some tylenol (I had given ibuprofin at midnight, so still should have been working??). Put back in crib with paci and he moved around for a few minutes and seemed to resettle on his own.

He was back up at 5:00am kicking in crib. And this is what he does early AM if he does manage to resettle, he's back awake every 40 min till morning, or up again sooner. When the routine is *almost* right, he will wake and cry out, go rigth back to sleep for 40 min, then wake cry out, go back to sleep for 40 min, ect. He's done this a few times and made it to 7am that way, but it's been awhile now since this has happend.

So he's in his swing now  - it's 5:30am my time.

I'm sure he is probably waking from OT, but seems to really be fine through the day to just push through like you said. I just get so scared that it's going to pile into something I can't get out of.

Any thoughts? I think if I can consistently get a 2 hour nap from him AM, that will help. That's what I will try for today.

Thank you  

[jennfullwood]

Betime was so much easier when he could had two full naps. It seems the catnap is really throwing us, and it has always been like that, even when we had 3 naps.

Last time he slept all the way though the night at 6 months, we had 1.5-2 hour am nap and 1.5 hour pm nap, with normal full A time to bed (3 hr 15 min). And he would go down perfectly and sleep all night.

[jennfullwood]

Sorry, no I don't think OS is an issue with short naps. Never had that problem before. He rarely short naps. He only short naps if too short A time. Then I know to extend and it fixes naps right away. I think the only short nap he has was that AM one the other morning...and I still lean towards UT on that one as he fought going down. He is a good napper.

When he was 8 weeks old, he started 40 min napping every single nap. Tracy's book doesn't mention anything about extending A time for 40 min naps (that I could find), it actually says the opposite - OT. And so does almost everything else I read, which was anything I could get my hands on. So I tried putting him down earlier for naps for weeks and weeks. I was beside myself, mentally exhausted. These 40 min naps lasted for 8 weeks! No kidding. I hadn't found the babywhisper forums yet, or my problem would have been solved much sooner. Everyone on here says 40 min naps are UT. Anyways, I eventually figured it out on my own, all he needed was to be kept up longer. But is sure caused much stress and stress for him too I am sure.

[jessmum46]

How you doing today Jenn?

Just thinking about all possibilities, how many bottles are you doing per 24h at the moment and how much milk in total is he taking?  What about solids?  How much/what are you giving and when in relation to milk? 

The day you posted - I agree I would let him have up to 2h in the am.  If you really think he can handle a full A time after a 45 min nap I'd cut the pm CN to 30-40 mins (so a bit less than a full sleep cycle) and then 2-2.5h to bedtime. Worth a try?

[jennfullwood]

Hi Katherine,

I'm ok. I've been up since he woke at 4:20. I just can never get back to sleep bc I'm always bothered with his waking and trying to figure out another game plan for the day.

I'm doing 4 bottles a day, 8 oz of formula, and usually 9oz before bed if he will take it, but he doesn't always drink it all. He takes about 29 or 30oz a day. He has been so weird the past couple of weeks, he is just not acting hungry for his milk, and I have not increased solids since he turned 7 months. Like just now, he only wanted 3 oz of his morning bottle and then pushed it away. I would think he would be hungry after not eating all night. I can get him to drink the rest by putting him in his bouncy chair and handing him the bottle and he will bounce and drink most of the rest of it himself while watching cartoons. He eats three 4oz jars of baby food a day. One jar at three sittings, about 1.5 hours after milk feed. He eats his baby food great. I have been cutting back on it a little to try to keep him eating his milk and I do notice a difference when I do that. He will take his bottle better. Still simple foods (sweet potatos, peas, bananas, pears, applesause, squash, avacado, and cereal). I think he is eating enough, but he is very big, amost 25 lbs and over 31 inches tall.

I'm not really certain if he is handleing the full A time after a short nap. I second guess myself and wonder if he was just so tired last night that he was hyper and just wasn't acting tired. I just do not know. He was in a deep sleep when I woke him out of the swing this AM, so I guess he was tired. Sometimes he is just very lightly resting when I go in at 7 and opens his eyes right when he hears me, but he was sleeping deeply this morning.

The even shorter catnap is worth a try, although I'm not sure how 40 minutes differs that much from 45 minutes? I'm just not sure if he will go down at 2 or 2.5 hours, but I will try it. It seems like he should, I know.

How will it look?

Wake - 7
S -10:30-12:30 (many times this is only a 1.5 hr nap, and before all these NW's started, he was beginning to do 40 mins here, so I may need to push this A time out soon)
S- 4:00-4:30/4:40
BT - 7 or 7:15

Wow, that is early bt for him. I would hate for him to start waking even earlier and then up for the day even earlier. He has never slept past 11 hours, even if he slept through, this would have him up at 6am. Then the next day would be earlier, with a 6am start? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong?

[jennfullwood]

I am remembering that at 6 months when we were in the mess of trying to drop the 3rd nap, I thought at that time that he need a really long A time to bed too...because of how he acted for a few days. He wouldn't settle at night, just like he's doing now, and I remember a couple of nights I had him up 4 hours before bt before he would go down, but that was after a 1.5 hour nap. He slept through the night but still woke early. After reading some sample routines on these boards, I decided that he should not be staying up that long before bed, so I put that last A time back to 3 H 15 M, which is what the rest of the day was at that time. He started going down fine at again, and then and after a few days, he slept all night till 7am.

So I'm wondering if that is happening again. We had some nasty NW's all night at that transition too, before the catnap was dropped, so he could have been tired and acting hyper then too when I was trying to figure out his correct A time.

Ahhh. It really should not be this hard. 

[jessmum46]

The only way to know is to try . So you could try 45 min nap and try BT half an hour earlier?  Fwiw with early bedtimes, I'm a big fan and J will tack on really well to the extent she's done over 13h at night before. So I'd always say try it - it may not work for you, but if it does it's brilliant!

[jennfullwood]

Hi Katherine,

Not sure if you will be able to get this today or not.

So my little guy is exhausted today. It has finally caught up to him.    Got him up at 7, he yawned all morning and very fussy. Put him down at 9:25 as he was obviously very tired. He slept for 2 hours 45 minutes. I've had him up almost two hours now and he has been yawning the whole time he has been awake. He is not fussing much yet, but I'm just not sure whether best to try to keep our A time this cycle or if I should put him down for PM nap early? I can tell he is still not rested. I've never seen him yawn like this....it's almost constant. I'm afraid if he's still tired come tonight, he might fool me and want to stay up late again. I guess that's what our night struggles have been...OT.

[jennfullwood]

Wow, what a day. I can't believe I let it get to this extreme and I didn't even realize what was happening. Poor baby. But he can be so confusing!!

So from my prior post, he woke at 4:20am last night, resettled with paci, but was up again at 5:00am. I'm not sure he went fully back to sleep. Very light sleep maybe. I put him in the swing at 5 as I knew even if he did resettle in crib, he would not be able to stay asleep.

Wake -7:00 - I woke him up in the swing, he seemed very tired, in a deep sleep
A - only 2 h 40 m - he was yawning constantly, wanted to be held, would not sit and play like normal, and very fussy
S - 9:40-12:25pm - went to sleep right away for 2 H 50 min!
A - only 2 h 15 m - again, yawning the entire time, would not play and wanted to be held...not like him at all, very exhausted
S - 2:40-4:00pm - I woke him in hopes for early BT
A - 2 H 10 min
Bedtime - 6:10 - went right to sleep after about 30 seconds of whimpering

He was exhausted today. I bet he yawned 100 times or more...I've never seen anything like it. He did not crawl around or play today. He cried everytime I sat him down to play. I did not expect to put him down at 6pm, I was planning on 7pm. But he was still yawning constantly, like every 30 seconds, very fussy, eye rubbing, ear pulling and he just wanted to sleep. I don't know if he was awake long enough today to sleep tonight. It may very well backfire on me but he was so tired.

So I guess we know these EW's are probably from OT then? Does this help us a little in knowing what to do routine wise now? He does not need full A time after short PM nap. He must have just been very hyper the past couple of nights due to OT by the end of the day. Keeping him up an hour or more too late for the past two nights and then the NW's and EW's, along with teeth....it really all added up. I think he definitly needs 2 hour nap in morning and at least 45min in PM. I will have to figure out what is the right sleep window at night. I think it will still be on the higher side, but definitly not a full A time.

I'll post in the morning and let you know how the night goes. Oh I'm dreading it!

Thank you