Set naps for a 5 month old - has anyone gone down this route?

[lynners]

Hi there,

I've been having some fantastic help from Erin on the NW's board working on our NW's and EASY.  We now only rarely have NW's and LO doesn't need any night feeds other than his DF so I'm very pleased  .

My LO can handle an enormous first A for his age and it seems to need increasing nearly every few days.  He is currently on 4h 40m - I know, insane.

As we are constantly chasing this ever-increasing first A, and as I have set school run times to work around too for DS1, we've been discussing whether set naps might work for us and Erin suggested posting here for some insider info!  Feeling quite nervous and worried about OT developing in the interim but this is what I'm looking at doing -

WU b/n 6.15 and 7.00 (would always wake him up by 7)

Nap 1 11.30 (asleep  by 11.40, would cap at 13.40 to give a 2h A til next nap which is what he likes - rather different from his first A!)

Nap 2 15.30 (after school run - asleep by 15.40, not sure when to cap as not really sure what works well for his last A, only 2 hours A max though I think)

BT 19.00

...nervous about first A being insanely long if he wakes up at 6.15 (although he seems less sensitive in first A than second where much over 2 hours seems to result in an OT melt down.)

Nap after school pick up often ends up a short nap so worried that wouldn't be able to make it without an EBT which I assume would make it trickier to 'set body clock'

Anyway I suppose I could do with any advice/hand holding before I go down this rather scary route.  Also can it result in more problems when transitioning from 2-1?

Gorgeously he did actually wake at 7.00 today so I've been able to put him down for his first nap at the 'set time'.  We'll see how the rest of the day goes.

[jessmum46]

I have to be honest and say I'd be EXTREMELY cautious about trying a routine like that with a 5 month old baby.  Honestly, the reason you're getting a good nap after 4h40 A time is because he's so absolutely exhausted he's crashing through sleep cycles.  The fact that he is only handling 2h the rest of the day after such a long nap also tells me that first A time is way too long and the 2h nap isn't anywhere near enough to rest him fully after so long awake.  A times aside, I really wouldn't advise capping naps at all at this age, and wouldn't advise capping both naps for an LO of any age as OT can build up very quickly.

Sorry if that isn't quite what you were hoping for as an answer but with a routine like that I am almost certain it will come crashing down very very quickly.  I am very willing to help you sort out a routine for him though that will help him to be well-rested  

[Aishi]

I agree wih Katherine hon. That routine looks like a car crash waiting to happen 5mo is too young for such a high a time even one with higher than average a times. How long have you been on this routine?

[Ima shel Alon]

I couldn't agree more.
The long A time in the morning is perhaps working for you now and will for a week or so but then he will be so OT he will be a total wreck. He will stop napping the rest of the day, He will have multiple NWs, EW and he will be so unhappy whenever he is awake because he will be so tired.
I don't mean to scare you, my LO was also VERY high on his A times and I had people raising an eyebrow on how long he is awake.
At 5m he is suppose to do something around 2.5h max, lets say if he is very high on A he could do 2:45, but almost 5h sounds too much to me.

[lynners]

Ladies thanks for your responses and I completely understand what you are saying. I know it seems insane but I have got to this crazy A time vey cautiously with Erin in NW's holding my hand all the way and LO directing us.  We only ever raise the A when LO starts 40 min napping and waking up happy.  The only way to get him to long nap again is to increase his A.  I have been working with Erin on this for over 2 months.

TBH it would suit me a whole lot better if he was on average A's - DS1 was 'average' almost exactly - so increasing these A's so much was against everything that I know but it is him leading the way.

It would be great to have more eyes on it but he is generally a happy baby.  Here's my other post.  It sure is a long one.  Don't bother looking at page 1, not relevant.

3 month old - are NW's ever from hunger if your LO wakes up 'gently'?

I'm just worried that without changing something eg setting naps, he's going to push for even more in his first A    I do agree jessmum46 that such a difference between the first and second A's is really strange too.  He really doesn't seem to be going down to bed after his first A OT at all.  He definitely lets me know when he is OT which he can be if I go even slightly over 2h10 for his second A.  The fact that he is so sensitive about that compared to the first A could well be significant.

Please let me know what you think.

[jessmum46]

Ok honey give us a little while to think and we'll get back to you x

[Ima shel Alon]

Nap after school pick up often ends up a short nap so worried that wouldn't be able to make it without an EBT which I assume would make it trickier to 'set body clock'

If you get a short nap could you try and have an afternoon CN as well?
What times are school runs?

[lynners]

Hi, school runs are-

Drop off - 8.45 - 9.05
Pick up - 3.10 - 3.30

The latest I seem to be able to get him down for a nap is 4.00 pm.  Beyond then he really fights it.  That nap anywhere between 3.30/4 tends to be a short nap - no way to get another nap in after that so often have to do an EBT.

Further to his crazy long morning A time, he had his 4 h 40 m today and woke up at 40 mins and happy!  Will keep to same A tomorrow but he looks like he'll be pushing for more A again    I don't know if setting naps might stop this but this is what's been happening typically.

[Ima shel Alon]

IIWY I would stick to the first nap at the same time. I don't mean to set it to a certain hour but rather count the A - 4:40h from when he wakes up.
Does he fall asleep in the car or something or you manage to get him back home for the PM nap?

[lynners]

Yes I have been sticking to counting his A from when he wakes up.  It's just that it keeps increasing all the time doing that.

Today is the second day he's woken up happy on 4h 40m so I think I'm going to have to increase A again by 10 mins tomorrow.  Currently watching him on his video monitor hoping he will go back to sleep.

Any opinions on whether set naps might work/stop this A increase?  I appreciate he's a pretty individual chap!

[Ima shel Alon]

I am afraid I don't have an experience with set naps at this age, but I remember thinking about it myself when naps were very difficult.
I am not sure I can think of a reason why it won't work, yk? It works for so many mommies out there who are not using BW.
What are you afraid will go wrong?

[lynners]

I suppose I'm afraid of this ever increasing first A.  As I know already that he needs an increase again maybe I should 'set the naps' at the increased A, because I already know he will short nap at 4h 40m. 

This is what I could aim for then

WU - b/n 6.15 and 7.00 (would always wake him up by 7)

Nap 1 - 11.40 (asleep  by 11.50, would have to cap at 13.50 to give a 2h A til next nap which is what he likes.  Any later and second nap would be starting very late and he's likely to resist.)

Nap 2 - 15.50 (after school run - asleep by 16.00, not sure when to cap as not really sure what works well for his last A, only 2 hours A max though I think - maybe wake at 17.30?)

BT - 19.00 

My major concerns are -

-if he wakes up early it is a monster A until his first nap (but at least it will be just him and I at home so can settle him if crazy OT)
-if he starts short napping again for his first nap would set nap times break him out of that rather than increasing his A?
-Worried too that if he does a short first nap, it will be a much longer A than he's used to until second nap - will def be OT and hard to get down.  Difficult to spend time shushing him (likes sh/not pat) when DS1 is home.

However if we keep just chasing that first A time, the second nap will very soon be taken after 4 and I know he starts fighting it then.  Then we may well be dealing with one nap and an insane A to even an EBT for him....aaahhh!

He is a tricky little monkey

[Ima shel Alon]

I think setting it is your only option, TBH.
What will you do when he is a bit older, only in a few weeks, and needs a higher A for his second A? You will face a late PM nap that will have to be short because of BT.
Like I said before, I think you should set the naps on 4:40h in the morning (and then it doesn't matter what time he woke up exactly) and 2h A for his second one. In case there was a very early WU you could either squeeze a CN or have an EBT.
There is always a chance that things will not work out, but they are not working out now as well, right? You said that he is starting short napping in the morning already, so I don't see how you can do it differently. I can't see how you are putting him on one nap in only a few months...
But it's just my opinion. I don't have experience with set naps and I am just trying to think what I'd do if I were in your shoes.

[lynners]

Thanks for your response.  I understand why you would suggest that. I suppose though my concern about setting the A time, rather than the actual time, is it seems to me to be sort of half following the BW method by having a 'flexible routine' but kind of ignoring his cues for more A.  I suppose I can't see how he would do anything but short nap for that first nap this way.

I don't know much about set naps either but my understanding is that by setting them at an actual time every day, regardless of the WU time, the body adjusts to this biological rhythm...but I really don't know. 

I can't see how you are putting him on one nap in only a few months...

This too is my concern.

The only other thing I can think of is keep increasing his first A time to get a good nap.  I shouldn't cap it so that I can get as big a nap out of him as possible - he sometimes does 2 1/2 or 3 hours (tends to when I first raise his A).  Meanwhile of course his second A will be increasing but perhaps I can just always put him down for his second nap at 4.00pm at the latest knowing I will just get a 40 min out of him.  Think of it as a CN and do an EBT if necessary.

...hmmm...

[Ima shel Alon]

I am going to go back for a moment to what Katherine suggested in her first reply to you. Do you think there is a chance that he is having a very long nap in the morning because he is utterly exhausted?
If you'd like we could try and support you to lower his A again to a more age appropriate A. I don't mean to put pressure on you, it's just that it sounds like you are not sure yourself you want to go with set naps and perhaps there is another way to do it.

I am sorry, I don't have experience with setting the naps to a certain time (but to set it to being after a certain amount of A) which has worked for me.