16m and still NW and some bad BT too

[londonmum2012]

Hello all
I'm back with more questions as still have not solved my DD sleeping issues at nighttime. She is 16m old tomorrow and I was last on here for help during our 2-1 a few months ago. We skipped between the 2 for some time and then went to 1 nap and has been working quite well in general naps have not been an issue. Easy looks something like this on a good day:

W 7.30
S 12.15-2.15 (2.30 is latest I let her sleep)
B 7.30

Our good days are usually one NW at around 11.30-12 and unfortunately we are in a bad habit of usually just bringing her into our bed if it's after our BT. It doesn't really bother me or DP and she sleeps like a dream with us. Sometimes she doesn't wake to come in until 3 or 4 so really depends. But it's almost like she knows as during the evening she will settle straight back with a dummy plug in her cot. She has done the occasional STTN but nothing I would get excited about as it's rare. Lately the NW have been longer and more awake. She's not really a crier but chatters and moans.

She's had cough/cold for about 6 weeks on and off and a bit of teething and a WW leap, so I've tried to just muddle through but things are getting worse. We are having a lot of trouble settling her at BT I'd say 4 days out of a week. She normally lies with me on our bed until she drops off as in her cot she just goes wild, but lately she has been wild in our room too....diving all over the bed, chattering and really almost like she can't calm herself down. NT have been fine but last few days the same issue. I tend to give up and drive or walk her in the pram as without sleep she is really wild!

So do you think that the routine needs to be tweaked? I forgot to say that often if she has had a bad night she will wake late - 8.00 or 8.30 even and I think this means her day is then too short to get to bed at 7.30? I would like to do fixed nap times and wake her in the morning if she sleeps late but don't want to make things any worse. I had considered trying again with the sleep training in her cot but I'm sick at the mo and can't quite face it. I live in hope that when she gets in a toddler bed it will be easier.

One last thing!! I've seen some comments about food allergies and LO getting wild when they have eaten something that doesn't agree with them. I wonder if this may be the issue with DD - DP has lactose intolerance and my sister celiac so we have family history, but no clue where to start to get help. Sorry for loooonng post!

Thanks in advance for any help guys 

[*Becky*]

from looking at her routine I would say that her day is pretty short. I wonder if she could be a bit UT?? I would aim to have her asleep for 8pm and see if that helps. Although the first A time is also pretty short it is getting you a good nap so I would stick with that for now.

As for the food issues it may be worth talking to your Dr. Does she have any other symptoms i.e. rash, bad nappies etc?

I had considered trying again with the sleep training in her cot but I'm sick at the mo and can't quite face it. I live in hope that when she gets in a toddler bed it will be easier.

With this in all honesty I would do it while she is in a cot once you feel better of course. It tends to make things harder, not easier when they move to a bed!

[londonmum2012]

Ah thanks for that - had not really thought UT but worth a try. We have been failing at her nap too the last couple of days so perhaps I need to push that back a bit too......although am tempted to start waking her at 7am instead, so the day does not get too late, do you think that would work in the same way? Today was a bit off at lunchtime but looked like this:

W:7.25
Nap: 12.45-2.00 (think she may have got woken by work men outside)
Bed: 7.20 and really easy, but she must have been tired due to short nap.

No other signs on the allergies and was just a wonder really if it was something common that happened.

I'm sure you are right about the cot and ST. She used to sleep independently in her cot but all went pear shaped when she was able to stand up in there (about 9m), she bounced and ran around then falls and bangs her head and I can't quite bear it. She seems to think it's an enormous game. My big issue when I've tried in the past (apart from lack of following through of course  ) is the overtiredness. Do you have any ideas how to handle that? She can hold out a long time without sleeping so how long would we continue if she's not playing ball? Also any tips on a wind down routine - we currently read books/have music box on, then lie down on our bed with white noise and sometimes I'll hum a tune. I suppose I have an issue in getting her sleepy/drowsy without lying down with her 

[*Becky*]

sounds like you need to just work on independent sleep hun. If I waited until my 2 got drowsy we would be up all night yk? If she has been an independent sleeper before I would use WIWO. Are you familiar with it?

[londonmum2012]

Hi there thanks, the later nap time seemed to work today. FX for bedtime now....
I know you are right about the independent sleep - and I've read up about WI/WO although not really tried it properly. I understand that it might take some time but how long at BT would you continue for? Last time I tried we were at her cot lying her down etc (at this stage trying PD) for 2.5 hours and then I gave up. 
I think she has a stronger will than me.....

[*Becky*]

wow - 2.5 hours!!
Can you talk me through how you are doing it.
Generally at naptime I say 45 mins max but at BT you do keep going until they are asleep really.

[londonmum2012]

Hi there

Sorry I haven't been on for a few days as have been really busy working. We are still struggling..........I'm wondering if we are now reaching the next WW as typically she has her "up half the night" sessions when they come around. Today she woke up at 6.30 (which is v. early for her really) after finally sleeping last night around 9pm. We had trouble at naptime and as I had to run an errand after 45 mins trying I took her in the car and then into her cot and she slept 1.15-2.30 (I woke her). Tonight she fell asleep ok then woke up twice and has just gone into bed with her dad after being awake the last 1.5 hours (and a 30 minute drive in the car).

To be honest when I tried last time with the 2.5 hour stint she was a lot younger (maybe 12-13 months) so I was trying to just do PD - she stands (Jumps, runs, dives around) in the cot and I say sleepy phrase and lie her down, over and over, I did walk out of the room occasionally to see if she needed space to sleep. She basically at this point thought it was an enormous game and as I said she doesn't wear out easily. I think I tried walking out of the room etc........the thing is with her she doesn't really cry much but because she's so wild when she starts to get tired she falls and hurts herself or is trying to get out of the cot (she's little tho so can't yet), this basically is what makes me stop in the end.

I've decided to try the sleep training again (properly this time  ) in Jan after we've done our trips to family, had people over etc as I imagine that's not the best time, and should be clear of the WW too by then I hope. Would be keen to know what you think would be best to try, I know you mentioned WI/WO. She's quite able to understand now, so I wondered whether a more planned GW or change in our bedtime routine might work better for her? I just don't see her ever lying down on her own and popping off to sleep in her cot..... eg. we have a new dolly for Christmas, it's going to sleep in her room in it's own bed etc......maybe I'm mad, I do know this is driving me mad!

When you say 45 mins at naptime what do you do after that? Do you get up and try again later or just give up on nap altogether?

Sorry so many questions and I know you are busy with your own!! Thanks for your help 

[*Becky*]

If she is not crying I would leave her tbh, she 'may' get bored and sleep more quickly. The only time I go in to DD is when she is really needing me.

I think it is a good idea to wait until Jan if you have trips to make...

It is up to you re GW or WIWO...I use WIWO on my tow and it generally works well but GW may be better for her. Would you like me to post the link so you can have a read through?

I used to get DS up after 45 mins as he would protest a lot and it was traumatic to go through it for longer than that tbh but if she is happy enough and will eventually go to sleep it is your call. I do think that it is likely a routine issue if they are fighting the nap when on 1 but we can see what your routine is like in Jan and work on that if needed.

[londonmum2012]

Thanks Becky - I've read the GW links on here too. I just need to decide where to start. Basically we just need to get her out of our room so I was thinking of getting a chair/bed/cushions to go in her tiny room so we can do our after bath routine in there and then hopefully stay in there. I will have everything crossed that she likes it! She's a total creature of habit (I suppose they all are at this age) so I think maybe small changes may be better for her rather than a big one.

She's just fallen asleep early 11.30 on the way home from somewhere in the car, so must have been tired from shennanigans last night, hopefully better tonight.

I'll make a plan and then maybe come back and see what you think once we get started. Thanks again for your support 

[*Becky*]

no problem xx