6.5 month old NW 45-1hr after BT and up for 2-3 hours...

[aelight]

Hi, all -

I am hoping you all can help me with my crazy daughter's NW schedule...she's been doing this for about a week, and I'm starting to lose it! She goes down to bed fairly easily after bath, pjs, BF, book, song, but she wakes up 45-60 minutes later and will stay up partially fussing/partially playing for 2-3 hours. I've been doing pu/pd, but I am pretty sure she eventually falls asleep just because she is exhausted. Last night, she fell asleep at 10:15pm, woke at 10:45pm, I fed her, she slept until 1:30am, I fed her again, and she woke at 4:30am and then 6am. Here is her basic schedule:

6am: wake-up and BF
7:30am: solids
8am: nap (1.5-2 hrs)
10:30am: BF
11:30am: nap (1-1.5 hrs)
1:30: BF
3:30: nap (30-60 min)
5pm: BF
5:30pm: solids
6:15pm: BT routine
7pm: BT

Are her A times too short? She seems SO tired (I think we're in a cycle of OT) and keeping her up is so hard. She goes down fairly easily for naps (she's always been a good napper), but this nighttime stuff is ridiculous! She's never STTN, but she's gone 6-8 hours without a feed. I don't mind feeding her once or twice if she would sleep the rest of the time! Am I expecting too much sleep from her?

Thanks for any advice!

[aelight]

I meant to add that she slept from 7-7:45pm and then woke up until 10:15pm....sorry!

She also BFs right before each nap!

[Erin M]

It's probably time to drop the cat nap -- start by extending your A time by 10-15 minutes every few days.  You should get to the point where you run out of time for the cat nap -- then you'd just put her to bed a bit earlier if necessary so she doesn't get too OT.  There are some stickies on this somewhere, let me go look:
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

[aelight]

Okay, thanks! I will definitely start pushing A time and trying to get to 2 naps. In the meantime, should I shorten the CN? How long after the CN is over should BT be? She's been up for 1.5 hours so far tonight, so we are going to get serious about this in the morning...

Thank you!!

[aelight]

Okay, I read more about the CN (sorry, sleep deprivation), but I guess my big question is: how do I extend A time when she is EXHAUSTED from these ridiculous night wakings? She was up from 7:30-9 and 2-3:15 last night, mostly yelling (she was in bed with me the second time and STILL yelling), so she's been up since 6:20 and is already tired. Do I keep her up longer than usual, anyway? I will try and see how it goes...thanks!

[Erin M]

Do I keep her up longer than usual, anyway?

It's not easy to sort it out, I would push it very slowly if she's that tired, only 10-15 minutes every few days so she doesn't get crazy overtired.  And if she does, I'd try getting a nap however if you can, even if it's in the swing or car seat. 
Let me know how you get on.

[aelight]

Ugh, last night was a disaster, and tonight is not seeming at all promising...she was awake last night from 1-4, alternately screaming and babbling. She went to bed at six tonight, it is now 9:17 and she's been up 5 times and is wide awake now  .

Yesterday
Up at 7:30
E 7:45 bf
Solids 8:15
A
S 10:10-12:30
E 12:45 bf
A
S 3:45-4:30 (put her down at 3:20, which was still too late, I know)
E 4:45
Solids 5:00
BT 7:00
Up at 7:30, 8:15, 10:30 (fed), 1:30-4, 6:30

Today
Up at 6:30
E 6:45
Solids 8:00
A
S 9:20-10:55
E 11:05
A
S 1:30-3:15
E 3:30
A
Solids 5:15
BT 6:00

I haven't meant to transition to two naps already, but they have been so long that there hasn't really been time for a third. But these crazy, wide awake long stretches in the night are killing me. I know yesterday's afternoon A time was way too long...is that to blame for all of this? I'm feeling so defeated and exhausted...I also end up giving in after three hours of pu/pd and taking her to bed with me just to get a little sleep...bad, I know! Any advice is more than welcome - thank you!!

[Erin M]

But these crazy, wide awake long stretches in the night are killing me. I know yesterday's afternoon A time was way too long...is that to blame for all of this?

The long A time would probably be the culprit for the repeated wakings after BT -- when they go to bed overtired, you generally get a bunch of wakings in the early night. 

The long awake stretches at night are often due to too much day sleep, but I tend to think there's something else going on right now if she's waking that much.  Any chance of some sort of discomfort?  Teeth?  New foods?  Too hot/cold?  Sickness coming on? 

I also wouldn't feel bad about bringing her to bed, I think we've all done that in the MOTN.  I know I have. 

[aelight]

She's definitely teething again; she has two bottom teeth, but my husband and I both think the top two are coming in. I gave her tylenol last night at 9, after she was not settling down, and she slept until 12:30...good for us! I gave it to her tonight, too, and she fell asleep without a peep (though she just cried out for maybe 30 seconds and then calmed herself).

The long awake stretches at night are often due to too much day sleep

Does it look like she's getting too much day sleep to you? Should I always wake her at the 2 hour mark for naps? What is the ideal number of daytime sleep hours for a 6.5 month old?

Thanks about the MOTN taking to bed - it's hard not to feel a tad guilty about it, but sometimes it's the only way to get any sleep!

Thank you!

[Erin M]

There are some sample routines here: chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months and here: chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months that might help you.  Depending on if she's generally had high A time, you might want to look at the 7 month routines instead of the 6. 

Average A times are here: Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?" (2.75-3 hours for a 6.5 month old) so you might be able to handle a bit of stretching, though not too much.

This link has average amounts of day and night sleep Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep -- though keep in mind that they are all ranges and that it's perfectly ok for the LO to be on either end of the range. 

As for bed in the MOTN, I think you just have to find a balance sometimes -- you actually need some sort of sleep to function and parent, so sometimes you do what you have to. 

[aelight]

Happy New Year!

After Christmas, New Year's and a horrible stomach bug that took down the whole house, we're back...and things aren't good . We've all been recovered for over a week now, but my daughter's sleep just gets worse and worse...

We have successfully stretched her A times to 2.5-3 hours, which did help to eliminate those early NWs. Now we're on to whole new problems. Here is our sample schedule (I read Ferber's book - not for the CIO - more for diagnosis - and he suggested a later BT, which did seem to help for a week or so):

Up and BF at 7:15 (I usually wake her)
Solids at 8:30
S 9:30 (wake her after 1.5 hours)
A 11
BF 11:15
Solids 1:00
S 2:00 (wake her after 1.5 hours)
A 3:30
BF 3:45
Solids 6:00
BT 8:00pm
Last night up at 11:30, 12:20-3, 4:45, 6:45 up for the day

Obviously, we're exhausted. That long MOTN waking was especially long, but it's not unusual for her to have a 1-2 hour stretch or 2 1 hour wake ups. And I/we cannot get her to settle without nursing. And now that will barely help. Last night, I nursed her at 12:20, she wouldn't sleep until 1:25 for 5 minutes, so I nursed her when she got up, and then she was up until 3. Is she just severely OT? She's also nursing like crazy during the day. I didn't put it in the schedule because it's so all over the place, but in her 3 hour A time, she will often nurse 3 times (once upon waking, once in the middle, once before bed). She doesn't nurse to sleep and falls asleep easily on her own for naps and BT, so I KNOW she can do it, but she will rarely do it in the night (sometimes she will wake up around 10:30 and let out a yell and go back to sleep). She eats solids, but really only 2-3 tablespoons per meal or so.

Any ideas? Honestly, I'm open to anything. My DH and I are losing it....thank you!

[aelight]

I should also mention that she turned 7 months on Jan. 1....

[Erin M]

Hi there, sorry you're still having a rough time.
A couple of thoughts for you -- I've not read Ferber's book, so I don't know his sleep theory other than that CIO is part of it, but I'm wondering about the later bed time -- what I see in your routine is that you've got a 2.15 A time, a 3 A time second, and then a 4.5 hour one.  This might work for some babies (mine always did a longer one before BT), but with that much of a discrepancy if you're not having good nights, I would reevaluate.

What is your reasoning for waking her after 1.5 hours for her nap?  You're at that age where a "perfect" 4 hour EASY isn't really going to work, so I'd let her nap as long as she needs to and then shift your day around accordingly. 

The frequent nursings -- do you think there's any sort of discomfort going on that's causing her to be seeking comfort from nursing?  Maybe some teeth or something like that?  Have you tried any sort of meds for teeth or something like that? 

[aelight]

Thanks, Erin -

On a more normal day, we do a 2.75 A, a 3 A and then a 4 A; is it better to have the first A be the longer of the first two? Last night, I had her in bed by 7:45pm, and she was a bit better...she didn't stay awake for long periods, at least. I will fiddle around with her A time a bit more and see if I can find a better fit. Ferber basically says that if they are up for long periods early in the night, they probably just aren't tired enough to sleep. It probably worked in the beginning because she was so exhausted!

Today I will let her nap as she likes. You don't recommend letting her go over two hours, though, right?

I think she is suffering from SA. She is quite clingy with me during the day and I think the nursing makes her feel close. She often won't even really eat; she just wants to be right there. That is obviously a problem at night, as well...she calms down and basically falls asleep the second I hold her or touch her. I gave her meds last night just in case, but it didn't seem to do much.

This girl!!! Thanks!

[Erin M]

is it better to have the first A be the longer of the first two?

Really depends on your baby -- some babies really need a longer first A time, others need their longest A time last.  It's one of those things where you just have to see what works the best. 

You don't recommend letting her go over two hours, though, right?

Well, here's the thing -- she could be trying to catch up and will nap longer for a few days and then shorten to a more "normal" nap time -- I'd almost be tempted to let her nap for as long as she wants for a few days and see where it gets you. 

Ferber basically says that if they are up for long periods early in the night, they probably just aren't tired enough to sleep.

That makes sense to me -- we generally say wakings in the first part of the night are OT, but if they are longer ones, I could see that they may be UT. 

I think she is suffering from SA.

Gotcha -- you might try reassuring her with your voice and see if she'll settle back down quickly -- the most minimal approach sometimes gets you through these phases the fastest.  SA is tough!