Anyone experienced a regression at 34 months approx?

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Everyone,

DS will be 3 in January. Since the start of the 1-0 and the BT circus I have been APOP'ing at BT with a back rub. This has been the fastest way to get him to sleep (5 to 10 mins max) and achieve the most sleep. He was previously and IS for a long time. I had no problem with it as he would always SS in the night and sleep through 99% of the time but for the last few weeks we've had many NW's,  most nights as a rule. He shouts 'Mammy!' at the top of his lungs  and wants me to stay while he settles some of the time. I think I am going to have to try Gradual Withdrawal again, which I'm dreading as I fear a bigger struggle than usual at this age. Previous to deciding to sit with him, he would bash furniture and kick the baby gate etc........anything to get us to come back basically, and it could take up to 1.5 hours with WI/WO.

So with all this in mind I am kind of hoping it could be a regression which will pass. He has all 20 teeth so I no longer have that to blame 


His routine is:

WU 7.00

Nap 1/1.30 for an hour capped.

BT 8.00

This sometimes changes up when he has a no nap day. He would always nap longer if I didn't cap, but don't think OT is at play for the most part, he's pretty good on 12 hours.

TIA.x.

[*Kara*]

I hate to say it but... time to either chop the nap down under 45 mins or get rid of it for the most part only allowing a catch up nap a few times a week at most

Sounds UT to me....

[*Becky*]

I agree, does sound UT. x

[Truly Blessed]

Than you Ladies,

I definitely can't discount UT, but here is more facts to see if you still think the same:

He's always really hard to wake from his nap, I think he would sleep much longer if I let him, and the no nap days are few and far between now.

His WU's are early evening and he sleeps more soundly in the latter part of the night and doesn't EW.

I would LOVE him to be ready to drop the nap altogether, but on the 2 occasions I've tried we have major OT melt downs after 3 days and his nights go from 13 hours slowly down to 11, and as he can only handle a 10.5 hour day on a NN day that means WU's creep forward.

If he has a 1 hour nap he sleeps an 11 hour night, so 12 total. 2 weeks ago when I tried for a 45 minute nap he still slept 11 hours at night with NW's but I only stuck with it for 4 days because he got OT.

He is in the latter stages of a cold and still has a bad cough and a runny nose, but the cough doesn't seem to be what's waking him up.

Thanks so much, these NW are killing me, it's like having a newborn again 

Last night at the 5th WU he asked me to rub his back and I told him Mammy is in bed and needs to sleep. He said "When I wake up I shout MAMMY! and I did it lots of times"  After that no more shouting.

I can't handle the idea of a longer nap shorter night. I am done in by 7.30, because although it's improving we're still having behavioural struggles right now  and for sure they are often linked with tiredness.

x.

[barbaraz78]

Vicki, all you say (and also my first thought actually) speaks me about OT instead of UT. It can be that 1 h nap every day is not enough for him and he built up OT over time. He may need, for example, 1 h nap for 3 days and 1.5 h nap for one day. Or, in my opinion very likely, that something (such as the cold, but also developmental if you noticed something) increased his sleep needs and so he needs having longer naps but, as you wake him still at 1 h mark, he built up OT. This especially if he has multiple NW, as a night with NW is not restorative like a sttn. I am finding with Federico (which is only two months older) that we need to be a bit flexible, allowing longer or shorter naps depending on how the night went and what he did during the day (so if the day is full of tiring activities he needs longer naps). This of course brings less predictable days, and we have odd 10 h nights, but he is more or less fine, and goes to bed usually at the same time every night.

We had a period of few days one month ago in which he took 30-45 mins to drop off at bt, and I think these were a phase. But they lasted few days. We have now some callbacks at bt (we don't stay with him for falling asleep), and this could be a bit of regression, but it is nothing major for now.

2 weeks ago when I tried for a 45 minute nap he still slept 11 hours at night with NW's but I only stuck with it for 4 days because he got OT.

This for us was ALWAYS a sign that nap length had not to be shorten.

In any case, before to shorten the nap I would try to rule out OT by allowing longer naps for few days and see how it goes.

In addition, I would try not to stay with him for nw. If he asks this, explain him that you need to go to your bed and that you'll be there if he needs you, but as a rule everybody has his bed and stays there over night. He's older enough to understand. Otherwise, although in the short time this is the quicker solution, the risk is to encourage calling you at nw...
As I wrote before, I am pretty sure F has some nw during (some) nights, but the majority of times he doesn't call us and goes back to sleep independently, calling us only if he really needs us.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Barbara, thank you so much for taking the time to post. I have to admit my first thought is OT, but as he is a LO who always handles OT well, it's hard to read him sometimes. I have actually done as you suggest, by allowing longer naps every now and then, because he is so so very hard to wake from his naps, which also points out to me OT, but then he will need longer to BT resulting in a long day which tends to backfire with NW's anyway, so as a plan moving forward, it isn't really an option. I do suspect that the heavy cold has something to do with it TBH. When I stay with him at BT as long as he has had a 6 hour A time after the 1 hour nap, he is asleep within 5 to 10 mins, which tells me that he isn't UT, because when he is UT, it's very hard to get him to stay in his bed, where as when he is OT he lies down well but his arms flail around until he is asleep.

I suspect whether UT or OT, that the fastest way to help him CU may be to cut the nap back to 45 mins and then hope that he is more tired at night to prevent the NW's and possibly extend his night, or like I say at least sleep through. In the past I have always WI/WO at NW's and he has accepted that when like you suggest I tell him everyone is sleeping right now including Mammy, but because he is now shouting at the top of his lungs when I go back to bed, I have been giving in, because it's impossible for anyone to sleep during that going on, and DH is so busy with studying and working, that he really needs his sleep too.

I think for sure I will ST again, but I think I will wait until after Christmas is over. One thing I have noticed though, is a positive difference in his behaviour when he has had a longer nap. It's so hard to know what to do for the best, but as I said before, my patience won't allow for those super late BT due to a longer nap, so I know as a family it is best for us all for him to be in bed at a reasonable time.

Thanks again, I think I need to think it over.

x.

[*Becky*]

see this is where I had the choice taken out of my hands with H...he just would not nap and so we dealt with CU naps every few days and 6.30pm BT's...for a long time!!

After reading your second post it does not sound like UT and the wake ups in the early part of the night and behaviour issues do say OT to me too. I wonder if the cold is just pushing him over what he can normally handle yk?

I do think though at this age for most it is better to increase night sleep and reduce day sleep if at all possible but maybe atm I would agree with Barbara and let him have a longer nap to catch up.

I def think you are right to ST after xmas xxx

[barbaraz78]

One thing I have noticed though, is a positive difference in his behaviour when he has had a longer nap.

These days, this is the most important thing to discriminate OT from UT: if behavior is bad for us is almost always due to OT. I have a totally different boy when he's rested, and I really don't want to deal with him when he's tired, as everything is a battle and temper tantrum.

my patience won't allow for those super late BT due to a longer nap, so I know as a family it is best for us all for him to be in bed at a reasonable time.

Yes, I understand, however for us, when F is OT, a longer nap doesn't mean a later bt. In addition, if you ST him again (I agree to start it when you are ready for it, so after Christmas seems reasonable), you could become able to put him to bed at a reasonable time and if he needs 30 mins to drop off but doesn't need you, you still have your evening.

I do think though at this age for most it is better to increase night sleep and reduce day sleep if at all possible

Totally agree with this. But in our case, when F was not ready for nap capping, a short nap didn't correspond to a longer night. On the other hand, if a short or no nap results in a longer night, I would totally go with it. But if not, we have to conclude that a kid is not ready for it. At least, this was my experience with F.

[Truly Blessed]

I wonder if the cold is just pushing him over what he can normally handle yk?

I think this is probably the case too Becky. When you write it down and discuss it you realise more than you had before, which is why it's so great to sound off to you Ladies 

I'm undecided about what to do at the moment. I don't know if maybe sticking with an hour nap could be the happy medium at the moment, but maybe try and give him a slightly shorter day to compensate, as he is rubbing his eyes a lot sooner than a 13 hour day  .

I think if ST co-incides with him being 3 I could try and emphasise what a big boy he is now and how I know he can sleep all by himself like big boys do. Undecided about whether to try WI/WO or do GW again. WI/WO has been unsuccessful up until now though.

Thanks again.x.

[cath~]

Not sure if this helps much, but from your description, my vote would be for UT (or developmental).  This is based on L though, not S of course, so you obv know him much better!

However, the few times L is OT, we just get the odd ENW but nothing else.  NWs in the MOTN are usually developmental now but used to be UT too (now I know her sleep needs better she has been quite well-balanced for the last few months, and never so UT as to cause NWs, just taking longer to nod off at BT).

What is S like if you wake after 45 mins?  1hr sounds like a lot to me if he is close to dropping the nap.  Could you do a shorter nap on nap days and then you still have the option of an EBT if he still seems like he needs to catch up after that nap?

Re weaning the back rub - could you teach him to do something else in place of it?  Eg cuddle/stroke a toy?  You might just have to be clear and firm that you can't do it any more.  He will protest at first but if you are consistent he will learn and accept it fast.  When L is UT at BT now, she just chats/sings for a bit (up to 30 mins max at the moment) and I only sometimes get one or two callbacks, no more.  If you can teach S to wind himself down in his cot, of course BT will be much easier.  What about giving him a book to wind down and fall asleep with?  You could tell him that is how grown-ups fall asleep!  If L thinks she is doing things 'properly' or the 'right way', she is much more accepting of it.

[Truly Blessed]

you could become able to put him to bed at a reasonable time and if he needs 30 mins to drop off but doesn't need you, you still have your evening.

This would be a dream Barbara, I hope one day we can do this. I know F is spirited too, but I don't know if he is introvert or extrovert  Sam is extrovert so he gets all his energy from interacting with me (and boy can he talk!) so I think this is why he finds it very difficult to spend time alone unwinding, and why he finds it so much easier to fall asleep at this age with me there.

Recently I was able to shorten his A time to nap which allowed a longer A time to BT and still have a 13 hour day, but the last 2 weeks we haven't been able to do that. Also as on a Monday and Wednesday morning he is at nursery, I collect him at 12.30 and he needs lots of unwind time, which means later nap but makes it even harder to wake him because he has had a stimulating morning. I am wondering about trying to alternate nap and no nap days, and give it a good 1 to 2 weeks to conclude if it will work. That would look like this:

WU 7.00
Nap 1 to 2
BT 8.00


WU 7.00
BT 5.30/6.00

Hopefully WU 7.00 after a 13 hour night. So every other day he might sleep 13 hours instead of 12, striking us the balance we need.

Do you think that's worth a try 

x.

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Catherine,

What is S like if you wake after 45 mins?

Very hard to wake Hun, but if I'm honest, no harder than at 1 hour, in fact it may be a little easier because it seems his SC are still around 45 mins, even though I believe they should have extended by now, he always stirs at the point still. It is the behaviour in the afternoon that is worse though, so I think as you say he may need the day shortening to compensate, if I were to do that.

1hr sounds like a lot to me if he is close to dropping the nap.

The thing is though, he rarely refuses the nap, and on days when he does he is desperate to fall asleep at around 3, so it kind of makes the decision harder in a lot of ways. The 1-0 for us has always been about BT struggles rather than nap refusal.

If you can teach S to wind himself down in his cot, of course BT will be much easier. 

If he were still in his cot then I'm sure things would be easier, but he's been in his bed for 10 months already, as he's so tall.

Definitely agree he would get the ST again with persistence,  he always responds well to ST and GW to be honest, but I do think at this age we will have a bigger fight, as you know how persistent our 'Spirited' LO's can be LOL  But then I am worried the BT circus' would come straight back for several more performances, because that's why I started to APOP in the first place, and leaving resulted in super long settling times and OT.

I was thinking of leaving him with a book or something but I'm pretty sure he would be building a train track after I leave LOL.

Thanks Hun.x.

[barbaraz78]

This would be a dream Barbara, I hope one day we can do this. I know F is spirited too, but I don't know if he is introvert or extrovert 

I think F is more extroverted than introverted, but only slightly: in fact, he has moments when he needs talking and talking and moments when he needs to chill out in front of TV or playing alone.
I really think that, whatever personality, what they need is consistence. I understand you are afraid of ST again, but he could surprise you. Especially if you explain him "how big boys do", they understand so much now that it is actually easier in some ways. I usually say, when F asks if we stay with him at bt, that I have to clean the kitchen after dinner but that I will come back after to see if he's asleep. This reassures him so much. He actually asks sometimes if I go back later. It also help him to know where I am going, that I am in the other room and I don't leave the house...

I would try to rule out OT before doing nn days, because in my experience they are really so tiring for a toddler that is not used to nn. If you do nn days, I would allow a longer nap the day after, so to compensate, and I would initially try with one every three days. Of course, this is me and this is because with F the behavior is so bad the day after a nn day, so I know he needs his nap.

[Mama_Mia]

Vicki.. I know M is much younger but he did go through the stage of napping every other day and had a schedule almost exactly what you posted. The only difference is that his nap was only 45 min. But it did work very well and worked for a couple months. I think it is worth trying.

[cath~]

Sorry, on phone so hard to quote.

Ah, I forgot he was in a BBB. That might complicate GW a bit. Have you considered putting a gate at his door? I know others do... Or is it more that he would just be playing in his room instead of sleeping? What if you look out all the toys?

If he's hard to wake whenever you wake him, then changing the nap length is prob worth a shot. I'm pretty sure L's natural sleep cycle is still 45 mins too (but she is younger).

I def agree with Barbara re the sleep training. If you can turn it into a positive big boy kind of thing for him to do, rather than going in the expectation (which might rub off on S) that he is going to protest a lot,, he might just surprise you and not protest as much as you fear. Either way, I'm sure re-STing will be well worth it.

I remember how amazing we felt after we re-trained L after her (truly dreadful) 18 mo regression - it was brilliant and not as bad as we had feared in the end.