37 nights in..... here's where we are.. Things going downhill fast!

[nevinsmama]

First off HUGE "thank you!" to Katie and Jessmum for their support and help with my LO! We have come and LONG way and I am not being overly dramatic in saying you Mamas have given me my sanity back! Big Thank you!

Tonight is night 37, we took some nights off when Ivy was sick but that was a while back.  We have come from DD needed to be fed to sleep and then jiggled into a deep sleep and then laid down. ANy slight blips and she would have to be jiggled back down and heaven forbid you do it wrong. ONe wrong move and I would be in there for, on an average, 3 hours.  We had nights that I had to do this several times a night, I was terrified of BT, nights in general and was a nervous/anxious WRECK! I even began feeding her every 2 hours just because I thought she would get back to sleep quicker. And she was no wimpy infant when I was doing this. Every 2 hours! Even my GW plan flopped....if she was the tiniest bit awake no amount of patting would get through to her. Eventually I couldn't calm her down at ALL ( in my arms or otherwise) and had to jiggle/bounce her back to get her to stop crying, then lay her down and the cycle would repeat. FOr. Hours.
Now when I lay her down I walk out and she goes to sleep within 5 minutes 90% of the time. FOr naps she is out within 1 minute nearly all the time. SHe has come a LONG way. It took a LOT of work and support and keeping an eye on the end result but we WILL get there. And of course I have a few questions now!

I *think* she wants out of her woombie now.  WHen she wasn't feeling well I actually held her on my chest to help her sleep and she was quite content on her tummy. During one of our rougher nights when she was fine it just seemed right to take her out of her woombie and flip her over. And she fell asleep, quickly for several hours! SO we stuck with that for several days. Then, in one of our rougher patches she semmed to be fighting being on her tummy so I put her back in the woombie, and of course she went tosleep. So, right now she is out and on her tummy and I feel like Ishould see this through,. I know I don't sleep in one position  all night and she is very strong on her belly and can roll all over. BUT< she can't settle on her back, it gets out of hand quickly and she gets all thrashy and wild and just can't settle. SO not sure which way to go with this.

Should I be laying her down on her back and letting her go to her tummy or continue as I am now with putting her on her tummy? I can see her just NEVER going to sleep if I lay her down on her back, and then we really have a problem!

How do I know for sure that she wants out of it and not just needing to be MORE swaddled? I had her most recently in her pink wommbie which is bigger and looser than her grey one. I have gone back and forth with those two and she seemed to do better with the grey one.

So I am pretty sure that this stems from a need to change-up her EASY to longer 1st A but we have a new trouble at night where she will just fling herself backwards when I am holding her and gets all mad and shouty. WHich I think I should say " I won't fight you" and lay her down??? When she gets REALLY worked up what is the best way to go?

AT what point in this is emergency AP ok to do? For example after a SUnday which with her new longer 1st A is impossible to get a good nap in before we go to church and we have wretched naps all day and it just gets a bit rough. I have stopped going to church it was so awful! We had one night of 5.5 hours of PUPD!!! And another of 4 and one of 3. I KNOW it is a rough day but what is fair to her to do? Last time we had a rough night I could see where this is heading and I held her a bit longer and let her get more sleepy on me and then laid her down. Is this OK to do? She knows what is up with all this but am I setting us up for a flop?

My sweet girl is sitting up and I think she is going to actually crawl, DS never did but I think DD will. SHe is 7 months 3 weeks old and she is still eating roughly every 4 hours all night. This is still progress but I just haven't had the nerve to push more yet! We have had some awfully long nights and I don't want it to get worse as I go slightly nuts over extreme lack of sleep. As I have mentioned, she just jumped up in 1stA ( she seems to do better on less A as the day goes on, but I have been wrong before!) so if we get our day sleep back up maybe some of this wil resolve on its own? Before her A jump we were getting about 2-2.5 hours day sleep, which I know is not enough! If after a few days on new routine this does not improve maybe I will have the nerve to push for 5 hours between feeds... it just sounds scary!!! ANy tips for surviving the change?

I think that is all for now, thanks so much Mamas!!!!

[katie80]

Welcome back... it's great to read your update.

Should I be laying her down on her back and letting her go to her tummy or continue as I am now with putting her on her tummy? I can see her just NEVER going to sleep if I lay her down on her back, and then we really have a problem!

But, she went to sleep on her back when she was in the Woombie, right?  So, it's just doing it without the Woombie that makes you think she won't do it?  Can she roll from her back to her tummy?  If so, I'd be putting her down on her back and letting her get comfortable herself.  My two have always ended up rolling over onto their tummy after a little while to sleep.  I know it seems like she'll NEVER do it, but she will... babies are smart little things.   Yes, it might take a few days of a struggle, but she will learn.

How do I know for sure that she wants out of it and not just needing to be MORE swaddled? I had her most recently in her pink wommbie which is bigger and looser than her grey one. I have gone back and forth with those two and she seemed to do better with the grey one.

My guess is that she wants out rather than needing to be more swaddled, but I could be wrong.  I'm basing it on her age and that she probably wants to move a bit and get into different sleeping positions herself.  TBH, she sounds pretty flexible to me, if you've gone back and forth with the Woombie.  She'll probably do better than you think.

So I am pretty sure that this stems from a need to change-up her EASY to longer 1st A but we have a new trouble at night where she will just fling herself backwards when I am holding her and gets all mad and shouty. WHich I think I should say " I won't fight you" and lay her down??? When she gets REALLY worked up what is the best way to go?

Is this at BT or in the MOTN, I'm a little confused?  It sounds to me like she's saying, 'just put me down and let me do it mom'.

AT what point in this is emergency AP ok to do? For example after a SUnday which with her new longer 1st A is impossible to get a good nap in before we go to church and we have wretched naps all day and it just gets a bit rough. I have stopped going to church it was so awful! We had one night of 5.5 hours of PUPD!!! And another of 4 and one of 3. I KNOW it is a rough day but what is fair to her to do? Last time we had a rough night I could see where this is heading and I held her a bit longer and let her get more sleepy on me and then laid her down. Is this OK to do? She knows what is up with all this but am I setting us up for a flop?

I'm a little confused on this too, sorry.   Is this happening in the MOTN or at BT?  I think it's fine to give a little more help after a rough day, but if it's happening more than once a week, it could definitely cause issues, esp as she's been prop dependent before.  She will obviously not settle if you just shh/pat her a bit more in the crib?  Those PUPD times are crazy long!  I can't believe you had to do all that.   She's either super sensitive to OT or something else was going on.  Just trying to think of some of the things I've done in the past to get through those days...  Can they not give her a nap in the church nursery?  Will she nap on you in a carrier at church?  Until my DS was about 8.5mo old, he would still do a CN, longer lunch nap, CN on Sundays.  After that, we ended up just always doing EBT those nights.

If after a few days on new routine this does not improve maybe I will have the nerve to push for 5 hours between feeds... it just sounds scary!!! ANy tips for surviving the change?

Stay consistent!  I'd actually push to 6... might as well make it worth it!

[nevinsmama]

Thanks so much KAtie! Sorry for the vagueness, can you tell I am *still* sleep deprived!! ....

Both instances were MOTN and the emergency AP issue were MOTN. ON a couple of Sundays' I have just turned the light off for BT and sort of encouraged here to FTS. As far as surviving Sundays I wish I could come up with something, she only VERY rarely naps more than 20 minutes in the car even though we live about 45 minutes from anything so there is plenty of oppurtunity.  Aah but no.  Same in the carrier, I took her to a park one SUnday and got 30 minutes out of her, still not much to get through the day one. If we could just get one nap. And IRT being super sensitive to OT, yes I think that's my girl! Obviously I will do everything I can to help her out but is there an age where they sort of "toughen up" to this? DS is all wanting to be out and about and one trip seems to throw a wrench in her sleep for the next 24 hours!!! The only time we have gone heavy on the AP was when she was sick.... still not sure what to do about the SUnday thing, maybe just have some good days already in our favor and hope for the best!!!

As far as the screaming and slamming herself around, just be there and talk quietly maybe? I suspected, I mean if she's not wanting to be held, maybe it is her new way of saying "I am trying to sort this out!!!"

Maybe go ahead and lay her down on her back? She can roll front to back and back to front.  OK.
 
Oh gosh, I may need a hand to hold to jump to 6 hours. I have spent so much time in there with a LOT of screaming.  WOuld it be reasonable to feed her as she is going to bed ( lights on, into bed awake of course) and then she typically wakes about 4 hours later, feed her then and then go the 6 hours? Sort of a DF but not?? THen hold out for the 6 hours? Oh gosh, I may wait to hear back from you before jumping to this. But hey! We've made it this far! ANd yes, absolutely we will stay consistent, if I hadn't been dead set on seeing this through we wouldn't have survived all this!

I am not sure if this belongs in the EASY forum or here but we are also ( and I am sure this is not helping anything) having  odd nap times with pretty long A's.... Our 2nd nap has been no prize for a long time but after a 10.5 hour night I got a 1 hour nap after a 3hr 45 (!!!!!))) 1st A and then another 1 hour nap after a 3hr20 A, she seems to do better on a shorter 2nd A. Maybe she is just settling into no woombie....? But we got this with the woombie too... Yesterday we had a 2hr45 1st nap after the same 1st A.( TOOO much I know but I was WIPED and asleep too)  WHen I was making breakfast this morning with her in the pack she dozed for *maybe* one minute. Surely that wouldn't have thrown her off.  I know she is tired, but does this still sound like "tired but not tired enough for a good nap and will wake up mad scenario" Any thoughts appreciated.... Thanks so much!!!!

[katie80]

As far as the screaming and slamming herself around, just be there and talk quietly maybe? I suspected, I mean if she's not wanting to be held, maybe it is her new way of saying "I am trying to sort this out!!!"

Yes, I think so.

Maybe go ahead and lay her down on her back? She can roll front to back and back to front.  OK.

Yes, again.  

Oh gosh, I may need a hand to hold to jump to 6 hours. I have spent so much time in there with a LOT of screaming.  WOuld it be reasonable to feed her as she is going to bed ( lights on, into bed awake of course) and then she typically wakes about 4 hours later, feed her then and then go the 6 hours? Sort of a DF but not?? THen hold out for the 6 hours?

Sure, you could do that.  Do you think she still has a bit of a FTS prop in the MOTN?  I'm only asking because with her going down independently well during the day, I'd think that would have translated to the night.  And, you're expecting a bit of a fight to get to 6hr; she is completely capable of this at almost 8mo.   Or maybe your presence doing PUPD has become a prop?  I don't know, really I'm just throwing out ideas, because I want you to start getting some sleep.  I totally know how that feels.   My DS was an independent sleeper during the day and at BT, but kept waking at night.  Granted, I fed him at least once for a loooong time, but even when I didn't feed him, he kept waking.  I'd go in, lay him down, say my sleep phrase, pat him a bit, and then leave him to fall asleep on his own.  What I then realized is that just my going in and laying him down had become a sort of prop.  At 1yr, I finally went in and didn't touch him, made him do it all on his own, and after a couple nights he stopped waking (except for the early morning feed, of course ).  I'm not saying this is the case for you, just wanted to tell you what happened with us in case it helps.

I know she is tired, but does this still sound like "tired but not tired enough for a good nap and will wake up mad scenario"

I don't know...  The 1hr naps after the 10.5hr night sound OT to me.  The long nap was maybe just a crash/catch-up nap.  How long have you been on the upped A times?

[nevinsmama]

Last night wasn't so bad actually... She self-settled several times before waking at the 4 hour mark when I nursed her. She was out at 7:05. I resettled at 2:30 very briefly.  Then she ate at 3:30. She woke at 5:37 and I was braced for the beginning of the day, I went to the bathroom and when I came out she had gone back to sleep, so did I until she woke me at 6:30. 1st A 3hr45 got us a 1hr10 minute nap with a 30 minute burble. 3hrs later got us a 38 minute nap. HAd to go out to get a new mattress for DS so she had a 25 minute CN just 2hr14 later in the car! This was our 4th day of 3hr 45 1st A. I am thinking tomorrow I may pull this back to 3hr35, or maybe that is too much, we have been so helter skelter lately I just don't know.

I do have a thought on all this though and I think she needs to be in a full sized crib so she can EASILY roll around as she wants to get comfortable and self settle well. Her packnplay looked little this morning! As I see it this means I need to get ready for 3 changes. Move her in to the big crib, lay her down on her back so she can do as she needs and ( gulp) push to 6 hours after the *DF:) OK.

Katie,. thanks so much for your thoughts and kind words, it really helps...I hope I will figure her out sometime soon! I feel like at this point I really need to be careful to not interfere too much while helping or comforting her while she self-settles. Several times it has just felt like the right thing to do wasw to just pull back a bit, and it worked out. WHen she wakes from these wretched naps it is like she has been shot out of a cannon, and forget any extending!!! I keep feeling like if I could really sort her day sleep things at night would improve.

One more thing, after a CN on one of *those* days what kind of A are other LOs doing, after our 25 minute carnap she was happy and smiling and giggled right before I laid her down. I walked out and puttered around until she needed a little nudge. Maybe 3 minutes later she was out. Total of 2.5 hours A after carnap! 2hr15 sleep on almost a 14 hour day.....geesh.....

WE have family coming in soon for holidays so I want to make sure I don;'t start anything I can't finish but am moving the big crib up to tomorrow's list for DH.

[nevinsmama]

10hr15 night. After 3hr5 A got a 50 minute nap with , yes, a 32 minute fussfuss. Tried to resettle but she screamed and yelled and trilled and cried. I am so over the screaming, screaming, screaming.

 I don't know where to go from here, our 1st nap of the day is usually our only good one. This feels like we are headed for 4 hours of mayhem tonight.


Maybe she does need 3hr30ish in the morning. Then why the 30ish burble and then an UT nap length? Maybe she still need....s a woombie.

Pouring drool. No bumps though.

My sister is coming in from 2 days away and part of me says soldier on, there will be enough people here i can get a nap and stay sane but i don't know where we are heading, what needs to be fixed......I don't see her often and can see me spending the whole holiday being screamed at in a dark room...

Sorry for the ranting.....just tired ans maybe a bit emotional....especially after  the CT tragedy and here I have my babies and I am resenting (Gulp) my daughter.

[katie80]

Move her in to the big crib, lay her down on her back so she can do as she needs and ( gulp) push to 6 hours after the *DF:) OK.

Deep breaths... one thing at a time.

WHen she wakes from these wretched naps it is like she has been shot out of a cannon, and forget any extending!!!

That sounds like OT to me.

One more thing, after a CN on one of *those* days what kind of A are other LOs doing, after our 25 minute carnap she was happy and smiling and giggled right before I laid her down. I walked out and puttered around until she needed a little nudge. Maybe 3 minutes later she was out. Total of 2.5 hours A after carnap! 2hr15 sleep on almost a 14 hour day.....geesh.....

Yikes, that is really long and likely the reason for the OT 10hr15m night.  At that age, I did 2hr after a 30min CN.

Maybe she does need 3hr30ish in the morning. Then why the 30ish burble and then an UT nap length? Maybe she still need....s a woombie.

I don't think it's the woombie, could be a little bit, but not totally.  I think it was UT if she's been doing 3:45 lately, and the mid-nap burbles could be teeth (if she's drooling lots) and maybe getting used to no swaddle.  I don't know what you've been doing for A times lately, but 3h30 would be on the high side of average for her.  I'd be tempted just to hold there for several days unless you think she needs the 3h45.

My sister is coming in from 2 days away and part of me says soldier on, there will be enough people here i can get a nap and stay sane but i don't know where we are heading, what needs to be fixed......I don't see her often and can see me spending the whole holiday being screamed at in a dark room...

Do what you can with the sleep, but spend time with your sister.  You'll regret it if you spend the whole holiday in a dark room being screamed at.  Can you APOP her in a stroller/swing/carrier if needed?

Sorry for the ranting.....just tired ans maybe a bit emotional....especially after  the CT tragedy and here I have my babies and I am resenting (Gulp) my daughter.

Totally get this... totally. (((Hugs)))

[nevinsmama]

Aaaand a deep breath.......

DH is taking the crib apart as I type.  Going to give her some play time, happy time in it this afternoon and then go for it tonight. I know her too well to have supe high hopes but it makes sense that if she has room to do as she needs to...well...we will see!!!!!

Here is today, maybe I just warped out on that 1st A but anyway

A3hr5 u
S50 minutes ( burbled at 32)
A3hr10
S38 minutes, breif resettle, holding back.... got another 20 minutes. Lovely.
Going for CN after the 2.5 hour mark as this day just seems to be falling apart.

Pending an awful  night I am thinking I will try A 3.5, 3hr10, 3hr10 if we get 1hr plus naps.

Do you have any experience with the zipadeezip?It is a  swaddle transition sleepsack. I know that a $2000 crib and fancy pajamas won't help if she is learning something new and our routine is off but it seems like sound reasoning behind it...

I am not mentally prepared for the 6 hour push......I am working on it!!! I know, maybe it won't be that bad, but I am down on sleep and wobbling and just think that 2 new things is all I can do today.. My screaming tolerance quota is used up for today....

OK, here comes the crib, YAY! Hope DS won't mind camping out on the floor with his new toddler bed mattress, he is always going around "Setting up camp" around the house so hopefully not.

HUgs from one BW Mama to another on the CT tragedy...

[nevinsmama]

Well, that wasn't so bad! Laid Ivy down (!!On her back, in her fleece gown) at 7:30 after nursing her and sat down on the stool beside her crib. SHe wrestled around grumbled and sounded a little confused but not mad or upset. She was out at 7:52! I came out once to get my phone to check the time and went back in, she was a dab upset but not bad at all. 2 grizzles so far ( only been out 1hr15) but has self-settled. I checked and she is on her tummy, she did that by herself. Hoping the night goes OK. Didn't have to do any PUPD just some quiet talking and a hand on her for about 10 seconds.

OUr whole day was about 13.5 hours long with 2hrs 25 minutes sleep. Choppy sleep. Hoping this sorts out soon with the bigger crib! I wonder too with her getting heavier if that little Packnplay mattress was not enough for her. Anyway, keep on trying huh!!???

[jessmum46]

Hi just popping in again to offer a little help with the A times if I can

It sound like she's overall got a bit OT from the disturbed short nights, and I wonder if perhaps short-term you need to actually shorten your A times a bit to get her caught up?  I agree actually the the 50/1h10 naps may well be OT, though discomfort can also give odd length naps like that.  Is she teething?

If it were me, I think if you get another short disturbed night I would chance pulling the first A back to 3h and hope she does a lovely long nap for you to catch up.  She probably needs more than that when well-rested but her total sleep in 24h is less than 13 at the moment I think?  (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

How does that sound?

[nevinsmama]

Thanks for popping in Katherine! Hope we can get this girl some rest!! Here is last night and today up to this point. Oh, she hasn't sounded nearly as MAD since she moved into her big bed last night. Been laying her down on her back and letting her scoot around and get herself comfortable. Definitely done with the woombie. ANyway....
Down at 7:35 out at 7:52
5 minute waking needed some calm words and a hand at 10:30, back out at 10:34
NF at 12:10
9 minute waking at 3:25, calm words and hand then bac out at 3:34
NF4:40
8 minute waking at 6:12
7:20 UP!
So, much better.
 
Had 1st nap 3hr35 into the dayand she slept a solid, yes, 1hr15. At least it wasn't all chopped up! Laid her down 3hr5 later and she was out after 3hr15. 2nd nap is always sloppy for us, so I really need to figure out what is up with that 1st A....She has * seemed* to lie longer 1st A. My son was the exact opposite!  Hoping the bigger bed will help us out here too, so I really hope we get a good night tonight but if not, maybe pull 1st A back some. I did that yesterday and we got a very messy 50 minute nap with 32 minute fussfuss. Hmmm. Thanks so much for taking the time to look at this.

 Off topic, but your DD is just adorable!!

[nevinsmama]

2nd nap was 1hr18. Better then I had hoped, ofcourseit had a 33 minute resettle, and then had to just walk in the door and then back out. So, SOUNDS OT but UT length.....hmmmmm.. THinking 3hrish till BT after that... Fingers crossed.

[nevinsmama]

2.5 hours sleep yesterday, 10 hour night last night. Tried for an hour to her her back to sleep. Trying the 3 hour plan. Sigh.

[jessmum46]

Off topic, but your DD is just adorable!!

I think so!!

The first night you posted was pretty good - did she wake happy or upset from those 1h15 naps?  I agree UT length but we've definitely had some OT ones of that length here too.  Sorry the second night didn't go well - did you do the 3h A time before bed on that day?  Did she wake happy after 10h or still tired?  I think 3h plan for this morning is a good one - fingers crossed she uses it to catch up x

[nevinsmama]

Yesterdays 1hr15 she woke up...civil.. This morning she was mad, which was why I thought she would go back down. She tried and would be quiet maybe a minute at a time. Then roar!

Thanks for your quick reply.

I am finding less is more with her settling wise. PU makes her writhe around and get louder.

So  tired this morning.....have to keep telling myself, we will get there..