Author Topic: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!  (Read 1815 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DreamofRain

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 6
  • Location:
4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« on: December 14, 2012, 16:01:51 pm »
This might be a little long, but I am at my wits end and need help, so I am going to include as much info as possible. 

I have a four month-old touchy baby boy.  He is my third child (my others were textbook and angel).  I was totally unprepared for a touchy baby, and feel like I am starting over again from scratch.  Since he is #3, he needs to go with the flow but it has been hard since he is, well, touchy.  We've been having sleep issues with him for about 6 weeks now, maybe longer, my sleep-deprived brain cannot remember exactly.

Routine..
E-730a
S-845/900a
E-1115a
S-1245p (cat nap in the pram while I pick up boys from kindergarten - can be as little or as long as he wants)
E-130p
S-230p
E-515/530p
S-730p

Unfortunately, I cannot alter this schedule much since I have to be out and about twice every day to pick up the older boys, and we also have to work around everyone else's eating and sleeping schedules (i.e., I can't be putting the baby to bed and cooking dinner at the same time).  And for my sanity, everyone needs to nap at the same time in the afternoon which is how it is working right now (all 3 boys go to bed at 230pm).  My husband thinks the baby would like another cat nap in the late afternoon but I just cannot manage to fit that in with all the chaos that goes on around dinner time.

A time.. it's hard to keep him awake for long.  He gets overstimulated and is not interested in a lot of things my other two were (he hates books!).  If we are moving (in the baby bjorn or in the pram), he can kind of zone out and be okay for longer but sitting or doing an activity for more than 10 mins will result in fussing and crying.

Feedings.. he is breastfed, and doesn't seem to have any issues with eating.  He gains weight well, was a normal healthy birth weight and has nearly doubled his birth weight already.  I do a dream feed at 1130pm with a bottle of formula.  He probably does not need this, but I would like to iron out the waking issues before taking this away.

Nap routine.. We use a swaddler which has helped.  We also use white noise when we are home.  But I have to take my older boys to kindergarten during the first nap time and pick them up during the cat nap time.  I live in Germany and usually go by tram so I am able to put his bassinet in the pram and he can sleep that way (though for the cat nap, I leave him sitting semi-upright in the pram).  He sleeps in the same bassinet at home that fits in the pram, but I know he will grow out of this in the next month or two. 

Props.. We have given him a pacifier since birth.  He is not real crazy about it (my second LOVED his) but he uses it.  In fact, this is the bane of my existence lately and the real problem and purpose of my post.  We have to put the dumb thing back in his mouth after every 1 1/2 hours.  Most of the time, we pop it back in and he goes back to sleep.  Sometimes he is awake for longer and fusses more but mostly it's just a pop in and reset the clock for another 1 1/2 hours.  Once in a great while he will be able to sleep a little longer without it, but never more than 3 hours.  As such, we were hoping to help him figure out how to put it back in so we have started swaddling him with one arm out in the hopes that he would suck on his hand until he could put the pacifier back in.  We've been doing this for about a week.  He sometimes sucks on his hand in the bath or when being held.  But so far, no luck in him soothing himself without the pacifier.  He doesn't have a lovie yet because there's no room for anything else in his bassinet.  (It's a phil and teds peanut shell if that helps).

Sleep position.. I do not want to take the pacifier away because it reduces the SIDS risk, and unfortunately this baby is a tummy sleeper.  He has had terrible gas pains since birth and this seems to be the only way he is comfortable (I also give him fennel tea when feeding him to help with the gas).  Also because he is touchy he has a hard time blocking out the light and stimulation when on his back.  He is very unsettled on his back.  I have tried flipping him onto his back in the middle of a sleep cycle at night but it wakes him right up and he instantly cries. 

Waking.. as I mentioned, we are up every 1 1/2 hours or so (sometimes every hour, sometimes every two, and once in a great while every 3 hours) to put the pacifier back in.  He does not seem to be hungry.  I have tried bfing him but it only results in him barely eating during the morning feed.  So it is not that he is waking to eat.  But I do not know what to do to stop this constant waking up at night.  He did sleep for 6 hours a few times when he was about 2 months old.  But then it seemed to regress to this nonsense that we are in now. 

Bedtime routine.. as soon as we have finished dinner (literally seconds after the last bite), we put him in the bath which he loves.  On non-bath days he gets a little massage with baby oil.  Then after he is dressed, I nurse him and then he says goodnight to the brothers and goes to bed.  He does not like story time and he does not like being rocked.  I couldn't rock or nurse him to sleep even if I wanted to.  He just doesn't like it.  He probably would like to go to bed earlier, but it just isn't possible.

Crying when going to sleep / during naps and nighttime.. Another problem we have is that we live in a very small apartment (2 bedrooms and a living room) that has concrete floors so the sound is magnified.  We have put some rugs in the hallway to absorb some noise but it's still a concern that the crying will wake up the other boys.  We have tried crying it out, but it absolutely does not work with this child (we did it a little bit with the others but they never needed to cry much, more than 5-10 mins max).  He will scream his head off for more than an hour, and will still not fall asleep.  So we end up having to put the prop back in so that he doesn't get too hysterical and bring the whole house down.

Touchy.. If I happen to brush his face with my fingers while putting the pacifier in, it sets him off and he is hard to settle down.  One wrong touch and he can cry for an hour. 

Things we have tried.. We've tried shh/pat.  We've tried pu/pd.  We've tried just putting our hand on his back to let him know we are here.  Nothing seems to work for this baby to get him to sleep more than a few hours at a time, at least not without that darn pacifier.  He needs to soothe himself - but how?  And with what? 

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.  Thanks in advance!!!



Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 20:17:11 pm »
Hi there and welcome to BW :)

Are you familiar with the BW books?  I wanted to let you know first of all that BW is strongly opposed to any form of controlled crying or cry it out as it damages the trust that your LO has in you.  Tracy Hogg (the Baby Whisperer) always believed there was a more gentle and respectful way to teach your LO to sleep.

You might like to look at these links:
Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us
Kara & Alexandra's Story


With the routine, to an extent a second (or third) LO has to go with the flow a little more so that you can cater for the needs of older children.  That said, there may be a few things you can do to help reduce the night wakings.  Night wakings can be down to all sorts of reasons - including under tired, over tired, hunger, discomfort, prop issues.  Looking at your routine I would have said that your LO is probably in need of a little more A time before his first nap (though I can't quite tell from what you posted how long he sleeps?  Is it until the next E time?).  If he takes that first nap later, his second nap could be pushed later so that he could have the trip to kindergarten as part of his A time, then go down for a long second nap when you get back.

So something like

WU 7.30
Nap 9.30-11.30
(Kindergarten pickup)
Nap 1.30-3.30 overlapping with older LOs naps
CN around 5.30 - could you have him in a sling/wrap while you get dinner ready, or in the pram in the next room?
BT 7.30

If he's touchy he may not handle big jumps in A time. I would keep it very low key and just add 5 minutes every 3-4 days to give him chance to get used to it.  You could have the last 5 mins just sitting in a dim room or in a wrap close to you so there's as little stimulation as possible.

The paci may well be a prop, but I would first try to see if there is some way to improve the daytime routine in a way which suits your family.  If the NWs don't improve after that, it may be that you have to think about getting rid of the paci using PUPD and shh pat. 

Is he going to sleep independently (with the paci) for naps and bedtime at the moment?




Offline DreamofRain

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 6
  • Location:
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 22:37:37 pm »
Thanks so much for your reply! 

Yes, I am familiar with the BW books.  I used them with both of my older boys (3 and 5).  My oldest slept 12 hours at 4 months and the middle one slept 12 hours at 9 weeks all because of BW. 

I mentioned CIO for a few reasons.. to show that we have tried so many things, and just in case someone suggested it.  I tried it a few times to see if he needed to cry himself to sleep as I have several friends who have babies that need to cry for 5-10 mins and then pass out.  This is not something we do regularly.  It was just a test.

Sorry, yes I meant to imply that the naps are until the E times.  The problem with changing the schedule is that I have little control over when he actually goes to sleep because we are either walking or on a tram.  I can't exactly do a "now this is nap time" routine.  We leave home around 830am and if I have no other stops to make, get home at 930am.  He starts his I'm tired crying around 845 and I do my best to push him until 900am to stay awake but there's only so much I can do in motion and out in public. 

I did the cat nap in the late afternoon with the other two boys.  I could try and put him down when we get home, but he needs an extra feed (in order to have 5) and the only place I could squeeze it in is when we return from kindergarten at 130pm.  So earliest, I could put him down at 2 but then that leaves him waking up at 430/445 and that's much too long to go until bed time at 730pm. 

It's frustrating to not have much give in the schedule, but there's really nothing I can do about the other kids' school times so I am stuck.

He is going to sleep independently with the paci for naps and nighttime (no nursing or rocking to sleep).  I am really reluctant to have him give it up because he is a tummy sleeper and I want to do what I can to reduce the SIDS risk.  (We don't have any risk factors like smoking, low birth weight, etc - just the tummy sleeping and the fact that the risk goes up as birth order goes up and boys are 50% more at risk than girls.)

So not that I can do much to the schedule, but are you thinking that if I could improve daytime A times that would help with the NW?

Offline becj86

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 346
  • Posts: 10859
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 04:41:33 am »
So not that I can do much to the schedule, but are you thinking that if I could improve daytime A times that would help with the NW?
Often if you get the day right, the night will follow.

I wonder about discomfort from reflux or something similar - does anything here ring a bell? Reflux 101 - General reflux information

Offline DreamofRain

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 6
  • Location:
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2012, 16:24:45 pm »
Thanks so much for your reply, too.

I guess reflux is possible, but reading through the symptoms, I would say he only has a few and nothing that makes me go, oh my golly, that's IT! 

I tried to talk to my pediatrician about the frequent night wakings.  He just said that 1 in 3 babies have adaptation issues and that my baby will "just grow out of it."  I told him I didn't have this problem with the other two and he said well, you have 3 so it makes sense that one would have issues adjusting to life outside the womb.  So needless to say, he's not going to be any help.  Unfortunately, he's the second doctor I have tried and I don't have the energy to find another one that's different.  In Germany, the prevailing thought is not to medicate unless absolutely necessary, so even if it was reflux I would have a very hard time getting meds to help.

Any other ideas on getting this guy to go more than 2 sleep cycles at a time?  We are walking zombies trying to keep up with two very active boys and a touchy baby.

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 20:08:53 pm »
Am I reading your day right then that he sleeps 8.45/9 to 11.15, 12.45 to 1.30, and 2.30 to 5.15/30?  If that's the case I think UT is potentially a big factor here - that's up to 6h day sleep in 12h which is very high for a 4 month old, with low A times throughout the day - 1h15-30, 1h30, 1h and 2h.  It's likely with that amount of sleep and low A times he just isn't tired enough to sleep soundly at night.  I appreciate that you can't always stop a baby sleeping while you are out and about, but I wonder if we can work out some way of working with the times you need to be out to make his routine more age-appropriate?

Would you consider starting your day at 7am instead of 7.30?  If you did that, he could nap on the school run in the morning at around 8.45/9 until 11am, second nap as close to 1pm as you can push him, again on the school run, and let him sleep until 3pm, then do a CN between 5-6pm and bed at 7?  Is there a particular reason you are trying to fit in five feeds in the day?  At 4 months typical feeds would be four hourly, so 7,11,3,7 plus a dream feed/night feed or two.  If you particular want to get a fifth feed in you could cluster in evening so 3,5,7? 

All the above said, if discomfort is an issue then changing the routine won't solve that.  However, if his routine is age appropriate and the NWs continue, we have at least eliminated one possible reason for waking?

Offline DreamofRain

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 6
  • Location:
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 19:07:57 pm »
You might be right about UT.  He always seems OT to me during the day, but maybe that is because he is not getting good sleep during the night so he is groggy all day long. 

I would prefer to have my day start at 730, but hey if I'm not getting any sleep at night, what's 30 minutes earlier?  I will try it.  We don't get home from kindergarten until 130pm, so I will have to adjust a little bit for that. 

I was trying to fit 5 feeds in during the day so that I wouldn't have to do a dream feed.  We added that about 3 or 4 weeks ago to see if it would help him sleep longer.  It did for two nights (6 hrs) and then we were back to up every 1 1/2 - 2 hours.  I would like to eliminate it because he probably doesn't need it, but if I do 4 feeds during the day then I will most likely have to do a dream feed.   But I guess a small price to pay for all night sleeping, right?

I did the CN for the older boys in the evening like you mentioned when they were babies.  I was doing the CN for this third boy in the middle of the day so I wouldn't have to stress about either making him go to sleep or making him stay awake while we were running errands and picking up from kindergarten.  Do you think that there is a reason why most people do it in the late afternoon and why you are recommending it?  Just curious.

I talked to my husband and we thought that this schedule below might work.  Let me know what you think of it.  I think it has about the same amount of awake and nap time during the day as the one you suggested.

E - 700a
S - 845/900a
E - 1100/1115a
S - 130p
E - 330/345p
CN - 530p
A - 615p (but no feed)
S - 730p (or as soon as I can get him ready for bed after we finish dinner)

If you don't mind giving me your thoughts, I'd like to know if you think this will help (or at least try to eliminate another reason like you mentioned) before I try it.  He has a really hard time transitioning to a different schedule (DST change was a beast) so I can't just go changing it on him willy nilly.  Thanks again.

Offline becj86

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 346
  • Posts: 10859
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 19:22:19 pm »
I was trying to fit 5 feeds in during the day so that I wouldn't have to do a dream feed.  We added that about 3 or 4 weeks ago to see if it would help him sleep longer.  It did for two nights (6 hrs) and then we were back to up every 1 1/2 - 2 hours.
You may be better off with a cluster feed in the late afternoon if you can fit it, than an extra feed in the middle of the day. Babies at this age actually need to eat regularly because their tummies are not really big enough to allow them to take in all the food they need to fuel all the growing they are doing, so eliminating all night feeds at 4 months is highly unlikely to be successful.

E - 700a
S - 845/900a
E - 1100/1115a
S - 130p
E - 330/345p
CN - 530p
A - 615p (but no feed)
S - 730p (or as soon as I can get him ready for bed after we finish dinner)
You may find that waiting til 1:30 for that 2nd nap will have him overtired - you would likely be able to resettle a short OT nap, but you may find it works better for him to fall asleep around 1 on the tram...

I was doing the CN for this third boy in the middle of the day so I wouldn't have to stress about either making him go to sleep or making him stay awake while we were running errands and picking up from kindergarten.  Do you think that there is a reason why most people do it in the late afternoon and why you are recommending it?
If you do a long nap so close to bedtime, LO is often UT and won't sleep as well at night. The CN is not particularly restorative - its basically a little bit of sleep to tide LO over to the next sleep. It can work to have a CN in the middle of the day, though its tricky to get it right and you'd really have to cap your other naps at 2hr max - you still end up with the likelihood that poor sleep at night is UT.


Offline DreamofRain

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 6
  • Location:
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2012, 08:24:19 am »
We tried the new schedule yesterday.  It went better than I thought.  We were able to keep him up for the longer A times and he did okay as long as we didn't let him get too bored or overstimulated.  He still woke up 4 times in the night, but it was only the first day. We'll see how it goes after a few days.

That makes sense about the CN being better in the afternoon.  And his longest nap was the afternoon nap (before we changed it yesterday) so perhaps UT really is the culprit.

Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to cluster feed in the afternoon.  It's the only time I have all day to spend with the older boys, and I need to make that a priority. 

As for eliminating all the night feeds, the other two boys were sleeping through the night (as in 12 hours) at this age with no feeds.  All of them have been very big boys with enough fat reserves to make it through.  I know this baby is his own person and he might not be ready for that.  But just going off the other experiences, I know it could be possible, especially since we have started solids.

Any ideas on what I do about having to put the pacifier back in?  For naps, he almost always needs it popped back in around the 1 1/2 hour mark.  And at night, it's every 1-3 hours.  We have him swaddled with one arm out and can try two arms out but not at the same time we are changing his schedule (this baby seems to only be able to handle one change at a time, and verrrrry slowly).  But other than trying to make sure he is tired enough to sleep all night and giving him the opportunity to learn to put the paci back in, I am not sure what else to do to help him calm himself.

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2012, 08:36:52 am »
Basically you have two options with the paci - either keep it and keep replugging until he learns to do it himself around 7-8 months, or get rid of it and use shh pat or PUPD consistently to teach him to settle without it.  It's really up to you :)

It sounds like you had two great sleepers previously!!  Just to say that STTN 12 hours at this age is far from being the norm - in fact only a very small proportion of babies will do that.  There is very little evidence that starting solids at this age improves night wakings, and actually pretty much all of his nutrition needs to come from milk at this point.  Solids are really just for fun - they are much lower in calories than milk, and if too much solid food is given it can actually rob the milk intake and lead to increased wakings from hunger.

Offline DreamofRain

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 6
  • Location:
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 10:01:02 am »
Okay, so we have tried this new schedule for almost 2 weeks now.  This is what I thought it would be...
E - 700a
S - 845/900a
E - 1100/1115a
S - 130p
E - 330/345p
CN - 530p
A - 615p (but no feed)
S - 730p (or as soon as I can get him ready for bed after we finish dinner)

But this is how it has actually gone...
E - 700a/715a
S - 900a
E - 1100/1115a
S - 130p
E - 345p/400p
CN - none (he doesn't want to sleep - he just cries if I put him down for a CN)
S - 715p/730p
DF - 1130pm

I think the assessment of him being UT was spot on and this schedule has actually worked better for the whole family.  The first few nights went much better, and two of those nights we got 6hrs of sleep, and one or two nights with 5hrs of sleep.  After that, it went downhill and back to waking more frequently. 

We have been writing down the times that he wakes up, trying to see if there is a pattern, but there is none.  He usually wakes some time between 1000 and 1130pm, and sometimes 2x in that stretch.  After the DF, he will usually sleep until 2am.  But then it's anyone's guess how many times he will wake up (anywhere between 1 and 6). 

We have decided to keep the paci and keep replugging which is annoying but I think it's something I'm going to have to put up with since he is a tummy sleeper.  He sucks his thumb a little bit during the day but never while sleeping.

He is still swaddled with one arm out.  I wonder if we should start swaddling with two arms out or if we should put the one arm back in since he is touchy and still doesn't have the motor skills to replug himself.

Solids.. So far he is loving solid food and can't get enough.  I'm trying to be cautious about giving him too much.  He seems to drink as much milk as before and now eats 1-2 small solid meals per day.  If I sense a drop in how much he is drinking, I will decrease the food. 

As for reflux, I am not 100% convinced he has it, but I would at least like to rule it out.  So, we elevated the head of the mattress, and recently put him on a liquid antacid.  So far, it hasn't made any difference.  And elevating the head of the bed just makes him slide backwards and it wakes him up once his feet touch the edge of the bed. 

I have also contacted my midwife to see if she can help (her visits are covered by our German insurance), but she is booked up and cannot come for another week or so. 

Any other suggestions/help/comments/etc?  I am desperate to get some sleep!!

Offline jessmum46

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 411
  • Posts: 14235
  • Location: UK
Re: 4m Touchy Baby - Wakes up on and off all night - Please help!
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 13:53:28 pm »
I would try bedtime a touch earlier and see if that helps - around 6.30/45 if you can :)