DF and NW question

[Naspochi]

I started BW and EASY just this week with my 11 w LO. We started the DF on Tuesday, and it seemed to be a miracle for the first 2/3 nights:
Tuesday
S 840-440 DF 1140
E 445
S 5-8 and then up for day

Wednesday
S 830-6 DF 1140
E 6
S 630-9 and then up for day

Thursday
S 845 - 330 DF 1145
E 330
S 4-7 and then up for day

Starting Friday things got kind of strange:
S 745 - 245 DF 11
E 245
S 315 - 5
E 5 (probably shouldn't have fed him here but I thought maybe his 12w growth spurt was starting)
S 530-830 and up for day

Saturday
S 745 - 3 DF 1115
E 3
S 330 - 5, soothed back to sleep then 530-630
E 630
S 7-8 then up for day

Sunday
S 9-230 DF 1130
E 230
S 250-5
E 5
S 520-630, 645-7
E 7
S 715-815 then up for day

These night wakings the last four nights seemed so strange to me considering how well the first three days went. I have a few guesses - the DF is too late? I'm trying to get LO to bed before 8 from now on but maybe things went better the first few days b/c the later DF was more in line with the later bedtime? I EBF and so it's harder to tell if LO is getting more food during the day to avoid the NW. Perhaps the NW are due to 45 minute naps? Is it possible it's caused by a growth spurt?

These are all of my guesses! If anyone has any input it would be greatly appreciated! I can supply daily schedules for the whole week if necessary.

[jessmum46]

Maybe if you could post the last two days for us in EAS format?  Then we can see if anything in the routine could be contributing to the 5am wakings   generally the DF is recommended to be between 10 & 11 pm based on a 7pm bedtime, so given you a generally on more of an 8-8 day at the moment the timing looks ok.

[Naspochi]

Thanks for your response! Here are the last 3 days in EAS format.

Friday
E 7
A
S 8.15-9

E 9.35
A
S 10.45 - 12.30 (only because LO went on a walk with grandpa!)

E 12.45
A
S 1.50 - 2.30

E 3
A
S 4-5, NE 5.15 - 5.35

E 545
A
E 715
S 7.45 - 2.45 (DF 11)

Saturday
E 245 am
S 3-5 (here's my question about NW...2 hours seems too little to me before next waking, and too early for feed but I thought maybe the 12w growth spurt had arrived so I fed him..., but I'll post in a different post)
E 5-5.20
S 530-830

E 830
A
S 10.15-10.35

E 11
A
S 12-12.40,NE 1-115 (not too successful!)

E1.30
A
S230-350

E 4
A
S 520-545

E 6
A
E730
S 745 - 3 (DF 11:15)

Sunday
E 3
S 330-5 (Again, NW I don't understand, will ask about in another post), 530-630
E 630
S 645-8

E 8
A
S 915-10, NE 1020-10.45

E 11
A
S 1230-12.50 (in car going to friend's house), 1.20-2.20

E 230
A
S 330-430

E 5
A
S 6-615, NE 620-630 (I know this doesn't really count as a nap...), 710-730 (in car coming home)
A bath
E 8-830
S 9- 230

E 230
S 3-5
E 5
S 514-615, 645-7
E 7
S 715-815, up at 815 for the day. (I know I shouldn't have fed him all those times over the night but Mommy REALLY wanted to sleep a bit more and thought the boob would help!)

Our EASY schedule is still kind of all over the place because LO used to be on a 2 hr feeding schedule (probably my fault) and his naps are almost ALL 45 min, I'm working on NEs and sleeping in general so hopefully once the naps improve we'll be able to have a better 3 hr schedule.

TIA for any help!

[jessmum46]

Sorry but what is NE? 

You might find this link helpful Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?"

I notice some of your awake times are very long for an 11 week old which may be making it hard for her to have restful naps, which can have a impact on night sleep and early morning wakings.  It's of course important to follow your baby's cues, but also have one eye on the clock and if you haven't seen tired signs by around an hour to an hour 10 after waking, I'd start winding down for a nap regardless.  After a short nap, most babies can't handle a full A time so you may need to bring the next nap time even earlier to compensate.

Another thing that may help is to try to start your day at a consistent time - so if 8am suits you, wake LO by that time to start the day and aim for bedtime at 8pm.
Hope that helps

[Naspochi]

NE is Nap Extension, maybe I invented it? So many abbreviations lol!

Some of the A times are longer b/c it took me forever to get LO down. But today has gone perfectly - every A time was 1 hour 20/1 hour 30, and he had good naps. I put him down to bed tonight awake, did 1 minute of shush pats and walked out and he fell asleep on his own! SUCCESS! The naps are getting better too.

And LO only woke up once last night at 430 for a feed and then slept again for 3 more hours. Looks like my hard work from last week is finally paying off!

Thanks for all of your help.

[jessmum46]

Fantastic!  Hope it continues

[Naspochi]

I'm back! My LO just keeps throwing me for a loop. The day after I wrote you we had a horrible night. I'll list everything here below so you can see what I mean. I'm also working really hard on extending his naps, but I'm not usually very successful.

Sunday night
S 9 - 230 (it took over 2 hours to get him down, maybe he was OS after a day at our friends' house)
DF 1150
E 230
S 3-5
E 5 (after 2 hours I don't think he's hungry but I usually feed him at this point anyways...)
S 515-620, tried to put him back to sleep but was unsuccessful
A
E 7 (thought maybe 12w growth spurt and he kept crying so fed him again after only 2 hours)
S 720-815
E 815 (fed him here to try and get back on 3 hr EASY)
A
S 945-1055
E 11
A
S 1225-105
A
E 145
S 230-330, 345-4
E 4
A
S 525-535, 540-615
E 620
A bath
E 725
S 815 - 345 DF 1115

Monday
E 345
S 415-715
E 715
A
S 845-930, 940-950
E 1015
A
S 1125-115 (only b/c on walk w/ grandpa!)
E 115
A
S 230-310, 320-410
E 430
A
S 530-610
E 620
A bath
E 745
S 820-345 DF 1130

Tuesday
E 345
S 415-715
E 715
A
S 845-930, 940-950
E 1015
A
S 1115-1 (only bc on walk w grandpa!)
E 115
A
S 230-310, 320-410
E 430
A
S 530-610
E 615
A bath
E 745
S 820-110, 115-315 DF 1130

Wednesday
E 315
S 330-630
E 645
A
S 815-9, 915-940
E 945
A
S 11-1 (only b/c on walk w/ grandpa!)
E 1
A
S 215-315
E 320
A
S 5-530
A bath
E715 refused to go down
E 900 (only way he'd settle)
S 915 - 315 DF 1215

Thursday
E 315
S 345-645
E 645
A
S 8-845
E 9
A
S10-1040
E 11
A
S12-2 (b/c on walk w/ grandpa)
E 215
A
S 330-420
E430
A bath
E 630
S 645 - 415 DF 1015

Friday
E 415
S 430-645
E 645
A
S 815-930
E 945
A
S 1050-1250 (walk w/ grandpa)
E 1
A
S 230-4
E 4
A
S 515-525 (we battled and DS won, no nap here!)
E 530
A bath
E 645
S 745 - 5 DF 11

Saturday
E 5
S 5-7
E 7
A
S 830-9
E 915
S 1030-11, 1110-110 (walk w/ grandpa of course)
E 115
A
S 3-420

[jessmum46]

Hi I'm so sorry for the slow reply.  I hope you had a good Christmas?

How old is your LO now?

Overall your days don't actually look too bad . I know the longer naps are AP with Grandad on a walk but at this age my LO was probably only doing a long nap in the car or the swing - all others were short and pretty much continued to be so until nearer 5 months.  Is your first nap of the day in the crib?  How are you getting on with independent sleeping?  The fact that you are resettling a number of the naps is also great!

One thing that may help is to try to get your day down to nearer 12h overall - I notice that most of the time it is closer to 13h.  Also try to remember to reduce the A time a touch after a short nap . But I really think you're doing well!

[Naspochi]

Thanks so much for your response, don't worry about the delay, I know it's the holidays! Christmas was nice, and DS slept for almost the entire lunch so I could enjoy it!

I'm starting to go a little bonkers with the short naps - I've tried every type of nap extension recommended on the forums and nothing has worked so far! Each method has only worked once and then completely failed the next 5 times I tried it. The only thing that works is picking up LO the second he cries and holding him for the next 45 min-hour, and sometimes that doesn't even work. I just keep reminding myself that the short naps are developmental and they too shall pass (or at least I hope so, otherwise I'll go crazy!!!).

I've found that LO's wake up time is pretty much around 7, but he almost always wakes up at 530 ish and I feed him. But once he wakes up at 7 I feed him again so that we can start our day on an EASY pattern (otherwise it starts backwards and I end up feeding him before he sleeps each nap). Should I be trying to eliminate the 5 am feeding? This past week he's been waking up more or less at 2 am then 5 am then 7. Or can I leave things as is and feed him both at 5 and 7?

Thanks again for all your help and happy holidays to you!

[jessmum46]

We had a 4.30/5am feed for ages - I just went with it and fed again at WU time like you.  Some days she wasn't that hungry at WU so I offered again after an hour or so, but it eventually sorted itself out without having to actively change anything

[Naspochi]

And almost one month later, I'm back!

LO started waking up 2-3 h after putting him down for the night. We would give him the dream feed if it was at least 3 h, otherwise soothe him back to sleep. But his NW kept getting worse and worse, he would go only 1.5 - 2 h between wakings. I did a lot of research online and found a lot of others with the same problem I was having. It turns out that the DF is not for everyone and with some LOs it backfires, like mine. So we dropped the DF about 2 weeks ago. Since then I've had a few nights where the first stretch is 6 h but mostly he wakes up about 3 h after going down and I feed him. I feel like this may be a consequence of the DF, but I'm willing to deal with it - I created the problem so I will have to face the consequences.

But the NW are still a big problem, I'll usually get the first stretch of 3 h and maybe another one of 3 h and then it's every 1.5 - 2 h after that till it's time to wake up for the day. I know that LO can't be hungry when he wakes up 1.5 h after being fed. I send in DH to soothe him, but after an hour of crying and no soothing whatsoever, we give up and I feed LO. So I've been feeding at all of 4 night wakings every night for the past few weeks, more or less.

Here's my question: if I know that LO can't be hungry, or should at least be going 3-4 hours between night feeds, and shush pat isn't working for the other night wakings, can I start trying PU/PD? LO is 17 w on thursday. I've never tried PU/PD before but I figure it's worth a shot if LO is old enough. I forgot to mention that LO is IS 99% of the time (proof that BW works!!! it took a bit of time but he falls asleep on his own now, woohoo!).

TIA for your help!

[jessmum46]

Fantastic that he now falls asleep on his own at BT!  It does sound like feeding him is a bit of a prop for the NWs though.  How about this for a plan - if he wakes up and it has been more than four hours since a feed, you go in and feed him immediately and then resettle back to sleep.  If it has been less than four hours, you go in and resettle him for however long it takes for him to fall back to sleep, even if it takes hours and even if it takes you past the four hour mark.  The key is that you decide whether you are feeding or not BEFORE you go in, and you see that through until he falls asleep.  That way, he doesn't learn that if he screams for long enough you will cave in and feed him.  The goal is just that he goes back to sleep - it might only be for ten minutes, and then you can feed him the next time (as long as it is more than 4h since a feed).  The first couple of nights will likely be very tough (may take two hours or more for him to go back to sleep) but he will learn quickly given that he is already an IS at BT

PUPD can be used from 4 months where shh pat has been tried consistently and not worked.  However, there isn't really such a distinction as many people think - at this age you still aim to do most of the soothing in the cot with shh pat, only PU if LO is escalating and then PD again once calm and continue to soothe in the cot. 

What do you think?

[Naspochi]

Thanks a lot for your answer (and your honesty with how hard it may be!). LO has his 4 mo check up next week and I'm going to wait to talk to the pediatrician before I try your suggestions, which seem great. LO is EBF and the last two weeks his weight gain has slowed down a bunch. Part of me is worried that he really needs the food when he wakes at night (he's really distracted eating during the day lately, I know this is normal b/c a 4 mo old becomes more aware of his surroundings and is less interested in eating). So I'd rather have the ok from his doctor before denying him food, just in case he really does need it. I know I can also try to get more in him during the day, but again I'll wait till our appt next week before diving in. I also think I need to get a bit more rest accumulated before I try soothing these extra NW - at the moment I'm burning out on about 4 hours a night and I'd rather not start trying your suggestions while so tired b/c knowing me I'll cave in before LO falls back asleep and feed him when I shouldn't.
Thanks again for your response, I'll let you know how it goes next week!

[jessmum46]

Great, of course it's sensible to check with your doctor first . Let me know how it goes when and if you feel ready to start, hope you get caught up on some rest soon x