Author Topic: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...  (Read 5918 times)

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Offline becj86

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 03:45:58 am »
on another post I just started I asked if three or four  45 minute naps are equivalent to two long naps,
They're not. The short naps are one sleep cycle (or less if they're 30min) and the long naps are 2 sleep cycles or a little more. Naps of 2 sleep cycles or more are considered restorative.

She's probably a bit young for cutting the catnap given she's so OT and she's not showing the signs of needing it. I'd be sticking with the A times at 2hr30 ish and keeping the catnap for now. APOP the two long naps if you have to to get her body used to sleeping, plenty of time to work on independent naps when she's sufficiently well-rested to learn.

She's woken up already three times tonight and its only ten pm here! 
Hugs xx I've been there - its really really frustrating. It can and will get better.

How is her gut?

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 09:05:01 am »
Hi Dani's mum
I just tried to post to your naps thread at the same time it was locked and linked to here so I'm popping in with my bit of advice.
I see pps have already suggested a 2hr 30 A time between naps.  Looks like your LO is still sleeping after 1hr 30 which is keeping her UT for the nap despite overall OT caused by short naps and disturbed nights.

Here's what I was posting on your naps thread:
Hugs, it's such hard work when they short nap.
I had a period around 4 to 5.5 months when my DS slept 40 mins 4 or 5 times per day.  I know it is hard work and LO is so tired by the end of the day.  it is partly developmental but there are some things you can try to improve the situation.

It looks like you're giving her a 1hr 30 A time between those 45 min naps, she is likely UT.
At this age a guidance A time would be around 2hr 15.  If she isn't tired enough for her nap she will wake after only one sleep cycle, after the short nap it is harder to get through a full A time before the next nap.  Gradually over the day she will become OT from the short naps which are not restorative like a long nap is.
You might find it reassuring to know that many LOs of this age short nap, you are not alone, and you are doing really well to get through the day as best you can.  The good news is that day sleep tends to improve at 6 months (when on a suitable routine for the LO) and that increasing her A time could help a great deal.

As the is quite a big difference between the 1hr 30 she's getting and the 2hr 15 guidance A time I would suggest you go in stages.  Gently extend her first A time (distract her, low key activity, the idea is not to let her get upset and cry but just keep her awake a bit longer) by around 10 mins, 15 if you can.  Hold there for a few days whilst she adapts to the new time, then increase a further 10 or 15 mins and hold again.  Continue until you reach a good A time for her age.  It might also be worth seeing if you can help her transition through to the next cycle (use shush/pat or whatever your usual soothing method is, preferably without props but APOP if necessary to teach the sleep habit).  It is unlikely that you would see immediate improvement and sometimes even after improvement there appears to be a regression where LO gets used to the longer time and short naps again because she needs another increase.  The 2 hr 15 is only guidance, at that time you'd be able to tweak for her individual needs.  Also, although you don't want to increase the A too quickly and make her upset or OT I would recommend not going too slowly either, as she gets older the ideal A is increasing, if you move her up too slowly you will keep chasing the A time.  A couple of weeks from now she might need 2hr 30 so bare that in mind as you begin to alter her routine over the next couple of weeks.

WRT is the sleep enough, well, it isn't restorative but we can only do what we can do and you are clearly doing your best to keep her rested.  The longer naps will come.

This is a good page to keep an eye on as she ages.
Is my baby ready to increase his ‘A’ time? (incl. 'A' times for younger babies)
The A times increase quite rapidly which can come as quite a surprise.

hth


Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2012, 18:01:54 pm »
Girls, thank you! I am working on increasing her A today.  So far not bad, but I had to let her sleep on me to get through the transition...for her second nap, she's in her crib, and I'm just waiting any minute for her to wake up, it's been 40 minutes. I'm not sure what ill do, maybe put her on me again just to ensure she gets more sleep.  Last night was a gong show here, she was sooooo OT...

So with a prop for now is ok just to get her in the habit?  What if she relies on this though, ?  Ill try without prop once I get her naps sorted out maybe. 

Her guts are slowly getting better. She isn't going poop as much anymore, but it's still very watery.  She cries when she poops now too, which she never used to do.  I wonder if its bc she has diaper rash.

Ladies, your insight is soooo appreciated!

Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2012, 18:33:19 pm »
So I went in there and put my hand on her back. Within a few minutes she stirred, but got they the transition on her own!!  In her crib!

Will she learn to get through it without my hand there eventually? 

Also, quick questions about A time...if she's having short naps, wouldn't I work on shortening the A time? It's the vicious cycle, too many short naps equal less A time which lead to more cat naps and a horrible nights sleep!

Offline becj86

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 22:07:26 pm »
So I went in there and put my hand on her back. Within a few minutes she stirred, but got they the transition on her own!!  In her crib!
Yay!

Will she learn to get through it without my hand there eventually?
Yes :)

Also, quick questions about A time...if she's having short naps, wouldn't I work on shortening the A time?
Only AFTER a short nap and only significantly if the nap is 20-30min - if its a 40min nap or longer, you only want to be reducing the A by about 15min or so. That's provided that you're doing HTTJ for the 40min transition.

Offline Erin M

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2012, 01:58:00 am »
Quote from: Dani's mum on Today at 01:33:19 PMAlso, quick questions about A time...if she's having short naps, wouldn't I work on shortening the A time?Only AFTER a short nap and only significantly if the nap is 20-30min - if its a 40min nap or longer, you only want to be reducing the A by about 15min or so. That's provided that you're doing HTTJ for the 40min transition.
Just wanted to reinforce this -- if you shorten it too far, you'll end up with an UT nap...and then your OTness just keeps on going.

You sound like you're doing great -- stretching A time can be really hard, but it's well worth it in the longer naps that it brings.

Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 13:43:49 pm »
Thank you Erin and becj....I'm having serious issues with her stools and her intense crying, she needs a dr ...teething can't possibly be this bad?  I have a thread going in feeding solids if you care to take a peek?

Ill work on her sleep when she's well again.  Very confused....she should konk out by now as she's been up ALL night shrieking this horrible scream. 

Offline becj86

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2012, 22:00:03 pm »
Yeah, I'd say there's something up medically if she's still not sleeping. Get her to the doc as soon as you can, explain the behaviours, not just the lack of sleep - lots of parents have perfectly healthy kids who don't sleep 12hr nights and complain they don't sleep, doc's hear it all the time. Write a list too, makes you look like you mean business and also helps you not to forget anything. Will have another look on your other thread. Initially it seemed like it could be foremilk overload but I think there's something else to it too, not sure what.

Have you given her ibuprofen at all? L was up screaming 3hr straight with the pain from an irritated gut when I gave him that... I know her issue is not new though.

Poor poppet :(

Big hugs for you too - its tough when LO won't sleep and you can't :(

Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 03:04:23 am »
Becj86, DH and I are having an extremely difficult time putting her down for the night. I've been APOPing her day naps which at least are giving her the sleep she needs, but it's almost as though at night when we try and put her down she has extreme anxiety.  We start at 630pm and I kid you not she fights us until ten pm sometimes later. We spend all evening listening to her cry, scream and kick. 

Yes we've been giving her Advil but it doesn't seem to be helping. I hope it's not irritating her gut more now, mind you we give it very seldom.  Even when she isn't teething she fights us at night. I've tried bringing her in bed with me, but the BT doesn't work, once she's fallen asleep its not as bad when she wakes up to get her back down.

We need a sleep specialist for sure. There's just no way this is normal.  I'm listening to her scream her head off right now while DH is Doing everything he can to soothe her.   ??? :'( :'( :'(

Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 03:21:09 am »
Btw, I don't think she's OT, she had three solid naps today totalling about four hours all day.  I follow her cues, she rubs her eyes, her lids go red, she yawns, and it's as though she fears sleep?  And mostly at night.  Her days are looking better but like I said only bc I know she needs sleep so I have to use props to get her there. DH actually has a lot to say and wants to post his own but I don't think ill start another thread, maybe continue on here if thats ok?


Offline becj86

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2012, 03:30:40 am »
Yes we've been giving her Advil but it doesn't seem to be helping. I hope it's not irritating her gut more now, mind you we give it very seldom.
If its not helping, I would try not giving it at all for a while - L took about a week to recover from 2 doses :'(

We need a sleep specialist for sure. There's just no way this is normal. 
Its not normal, I'm not sure that its a sleep issue though, TBH, if it was OT, she'd crash and get through it some time, yk? I know you've been through a large number of docs... hope you are able to find an answer soon!

it's as though she fears sleep?  And mostly at night.  Her days are looking better but like I said only bc I know she needs sleep so I have to use props to get her there.
/quote]
So, you've probably answered these questions elsewhere before...
*is it dark in her room?
*does she go happily into her room and then fight going into her bed or fight going to her room?
*does the cat go in her room/bed at all?
*does she have any troubles lying flat - maybe raising the head of her bed would help?
*swaddling - are you swaddling? Only for night? Does she like/dislike that?

How are you APOPing naps at the moment? Is she sleeping in her bed at all apart from night?

DH actually has a lot to say and wants to post his own but I don't think ill start another thread, maybe continue on here if thats ok?
/quote]
Best if he posts on your existing thread.

Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2012, 04:41:56 am »
Hi - it's the husband here. :)  My apologies - this will be a little long.

Firstly, thank you for all your efforts helping us and others.  We can't describe how important it is to have this resource.

In reply to your questions... It's dark in her room with two dim night lights.  We have no pets.  The baby begins to squirm and get nervous when we are about ten feet (3 meters) outside her bedroom.  I have experimented with this endlessly so I know this isn't a one-off.  If you turn and head back down the hall away from her room she calms down.  She will start up again if you turn around and walk towards her room once more.  It's weird, to say the least.  This is why my wife and I have tried her sleeping in our bed, despite this usually being a big no-no. 

Once you get her in the room, its a long night ahead.  There is crying, kicking, punching, arching of the back, screaming, moaning, and extreme tension that is actually the reason why she can't fall asleep.  My wife rocks and walks her until she's calm and then takes to the glider chair.  For me, singing her favourite song while bouncing her and then sitting in the glider for a while calms her down eventually.  I sing the same song every night and she knows it - it's my secret weapon so I have to use it at just the right time.  Sometimes we need to swap out, as exhaustion takes over and the other person gives it a crack.  For each of us, the ritual of calming and then actually getting her to sleep takes between 30 and 90 minutes.  We try to put her in the crib while she's still semi-awake, unless its an extreme night like tonight.  As my wife mentioned in an earlier post, all this work can get erased if she wakes at the transition and some nights we have to start from scratch.  This can result in 3 or 4 total hours of this work before she is officially asleep.  Generally, the aforementioned activity occurs between 7pm and 11pm.  On average I'd say she now falls asleep at 10:45pm. 

She does not have problems with positioning and we stopped swaddling after she was three months (we heard it could stunt growth).  It was the only way she would sleep properly after the first month of life, so we used to do it every night.  Oddly enough, I had to swaddle her tonight for the first time in ages because she was inconsolable. This was one of the worst nights ever, IMHO. 

One of the problems with her taking so long to get to sleep is that over the course of, say, 3 hours, many other concurrent functions are taking place.  She's getting hungry, her teeth may start bothering her (resulting in possible medication), she may develop gas from the crying, she might need a change and she may get OT.  Some of these issues result in taking a break from the ritual to change her diaper, administer Orajel or Advil, feed her, etc.  These breaks only complicate matters and we begin to have simultaneous issues over this expanse of time, adding even further complexity.

In light of this, we are trying to simplify and modularize our baby's issues. If we can tackle one at a time (as we do in the daytime) it will be manageable, but right now bedtime is hell.  In the day, naps usually aren't easy but sometimes are achieved relatively painlessly (about 50% the crying is less than 10 minutes).  They are, however, too short unless we use props (i.e. car).  At night, all of her issues are occurring at once and everything is confused.  I have read all the previous posts and wanted to emphasize that her OTness and lack of EASY rhythm is due to the fact that we cannot just put her down at S time.  Sometimes putting her down takes longer than the S itself!  This throws everything off.  My feeling (and I think my wife agrees) is that we need to fix the night issues, then the day naps, and things will begin to improve.  But the heart of the matter is getting her to sleep. 

This is the gist of the story.  We have parallel issues with the diarrhea and teeth but this "fear" of going to bed is the most detrimental - not to mention possibly dangerous to her development.  I have not heard of a child this age needing only 7-8 hours of sleep every night, and then some days not even napping at all.

My wife and I are borderline phobic of putting her to bed, since every night without fail we undergo this trauma.  Life isn't fun right now and it will get better, but we need help.  Any thoughts would be appreciated. 


Thanks,
Sleepless in Canada

Offline becj86

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2012, 07:35:47 am »
We have no pets.
Sorry! Different baby with similarly long-running issues was on my mind there :-[

My feeling (and I think my wife agrees) is that we need to fix the night issues, then the day naps, and things will begin to improve.  But the heart of the matter is getting her to sleep. 
Having read this, I agree - usually with a severely OT baby, getting the day right means the night gets better but while you can APOP naps, its not feasible to drive all night and you have hit the nail on the head - she needs to be able to get to sleep.

The baby begins to squirm and get nervous when we are about ten feet (3 meters) outside her bedroom.  I have experimented with this endlessly so I know this isn't a one-off.  If you turn and head back down the hall away from her room she calms down.  She will start up again if you turn around and walk towards her room once more.  It's weird, to say the least. 
Been there, it sucks, it really does :(
Do you ever go in her room for anything other than sleep? Can you do some fun quiet playtime in her cot during her A time and take her back out again before naptime? APOP naps where you can and concentrate on building some positive associations with her room and her cot.

One of the problems with her taking so long to get to sleep is that over the course of, say, 3 hours, many other concurrent functions are taking place.  She's getting hungry, her teeth may start bothering her (resulting in possible medication), she may develop gas from the crying, she might need a change and she may get OT.  Some of these issues result in taking a break from the ritual to change her diaper, administer Orajel or Advil, feed her, etc.  These breaks only complicate matters and we begin to have simultaneous issues over this expanse of time, adding even further complexity.
Its worth knowing all these things are taken care of when you go into her room to put her down, so create a bedtime routine, eg. bath/massage, clean nappy, meds, feed, song (maybe you sing the song as you go to her room), then sit in the glider and rock for a bit (Fingers crossed she sleeps!). All you're doing here is helping her feel at home in her room, that its not a scary horrible place. You could try sleeping with her sheets in your bed and then putting them on her bed so her bed smells like you. Has she a dummy/lovey - something she can use to help her calm and relax so she can get to sleep?

From what you write, it seems you think LO is tense? If so, maybe incorporate some big tight hugs into your wind down too - helps her release her energy to you with the body contact. Acknowledge her feelings and talk to her about sleep and why its needed - "Dani, I know its frustrating to have to miss out on what's happening in the world and go to sleep, it seems like you wish you could stay awake all the time. The problem with that is you need sleep to grow and to give you energy to explore and enjoy the world during the day.". Its never too early to talk to LO about emotions or why sleep is necessary, they take in a lot more than we give them credit for!

Offline Dani's mum

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2013, 13:56:01 pm »
Thank you so much for your reply. This is beyond what my husband and I are capable of handling, we have hired a sleep consultant to get us on the right track and hopefully resolve our issues. I do appreciate your support through this difficult time.

 :'(

Offline Erin M

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Re: EXTREMELY OT baby on our hands...
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 03:36:37 am »
Good luck!