Author Topic: Sleeps so little, up so much at night. Starting with 6mo after Reflux and AP  (Read 2377 times)

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Offline tori1083

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Modified to say- Please, please someone respond. 
We feel like we are losing our minds, not sleeping here.  Part of me just wants to put her into bed with us because at least we wouldn't be awake so much of the night.  Each night, we are getting around 5 hours of sleep.  This is just isn't sustainable over this long of a period of time (a week of this training plus the 6 months prior to this).

Hello,
I have discovered this forum and Tracy's books from searching online for ways to help my 6 month old sleep.  I started perusing the forum and then bought and read one of Tracy's books (I think the one published in 2006).  After beginning to implement EASY based on the guidelines for starting with an older child, I have some questions.

Here goes:
This is my second child and she is 6 months on January 1.  She began life with reflux, but does not seem really have issues with it anymore.  (She still spits up some and likes to sleep inclined, but does not ever throw up or seem in pain anymore. Additionally, pu/pd does not bother her and even seems to help).  She was also extremely sleepy for the first 2-3 months of life and fell asleep anytime she was held.  Because of these two issues, we ended up holding her and letting her sleep in our arms or in our bed a lot (Accidental Parenting!!!)  Based on the temperment descriptions in the book, she seems to fall under the category of "Touchy."  She still prefers womb-like conditions to sleep (white noise, arms inside a wombie type sleep sack).  She also seems most comfortable with her crib at an incline and turned on her side, wedged between giant rolled-up blanket rolls.  As more background: Our first child was more like a "textbook" baby and with very little effort, fell within a VERY predictable EASY routine (I had not even read this book, but that is just how we did).  She slept through the night at 7 weeks and was super super easy with sleep, etc.  We have tried from day one to continue some form of EASY with baby girl #2.  She is fine with the order of E.A.S., but these events never happen at the same time (unpredictable) and she wakes up at least once every night.  Up until a few weeks ago, she used a pacifier at night and would wake up and cry when it fell out of her mouth.  For 5 months, we would wake up with her and put it back into her mouth (sometimes up to 6 times per night- she slept in a travel crib beside us so it was easy to do this) so that we could quickly go back to sleep.  (Since reading the book, we determined that this had become a sleep prop, though we discontinued it about 2 weeks prior because we want to teach her to fall asleep without it). 

Before reading the book, we were breastfeeding every 3 hours after 1.5-2 hours of wake time and 45min-1hr of sleep.  She was up at night, but never seemed to need fed, just paci put into mouth or re-cuddled, or reswaddled.  Since reading the book, she seems content eating every 4 hours and can easily stay awake for 2 hours at a time.  We are trying to follow the book to the letter as far as the rigidity of the timing (eating and sleeping at certain times and shh/pat and pu/pd method to resettle).  We started last Wednesday (5 days ago).  I FEEL like we are making progress because her night wake-ups, though still 1-3 per night, now take only 10-15 min and maybe 1-2 pu/pd for her to resettle (some of the night wakings were up to 2 hours and several pu/pd for the first few nights).  So-- this is a great improvement.  Her morning nap is usually a full 1.5-2 hours.  Her afternoon nap is usually 45min-1hr.  She often wakes early and cannot get back to sleep in the afternoon nap, after which we will usually get her up at about 2:45ish and then wait until 3pm to feed.  She predictably takes about a 45min-1hr catnap from about 5-6.  Bedtime is good at around 7:45 after a feeding.  Then, usually up at 2:30, 3:30, and 5:30/6ish.  I try to hold off to feed until close to 7am.

Regarding the shortish afternoon nap, I have wondered if she is overtired (b/c of night wakings) or even under tired, or hungry.  We are starting sweet potato solids this week and I tried an additional breastfeeding "top off" before the afternoon nap.  She slept for about an hour today.

  Also, I am not exactly sure how much sleep is the magic number at this age (hard to guage under vs over tired).  Also, In Tracy's book, she recommends being very rigid with times in the early days, whereas, when I come on here, I see all kinds of different tips and tricks to try which vary from a rigid approach.  I am wondering if I should keep with the rigid approach for awhile longer and seeing if it all falls into place, or if we should start tweaking (which, admittedly, I have already begun as you can see by the last two days of our routine).  Furthermore, when I read some of the posts and responses, I feel overwhelmed with the precise measurements and recommendations for activity and sleep times, etc.  Furthermore, after 6 months of difficulty, little sleep, and unpredictability, I feel as if I am going crazy, hopeless, helpless, and becoming sort of depressed.

So, if you have experience with this approach, would you mind weighing in?

I'll list our times of things for the past few days-

Sunday:
E: 7, woken to eat
A: 7:30-8:30
E: 8:30 solids (sweet potato- 1/3 tbsp)
S: 9:10-11:05 nap (9:15-9:30 shh/pat and pu/pd)

E: 11:05
A: 11:30-1:30
S: 1:30-2:25 (tried and failed to resettle) gotten out of bed at 2:50

E: 3
A: 3:30-5
S: 5-5:45 catnap

A: 5:45-7:25
E: 7:25
S: 7:55 - Bedtime

E: 11pm (she woke up to eat, we usually dreamfeed around this time)
S: 11:30-2:30
2:30am pu/pd once, took 15 min to fall asleep
3:30am pu/pd once, took 15 min to fall asleep
6am- could not resettle, tried for 30 min. then gotten up to eat


Monday
E: 6:45am
A: 7:15-8:15
E: 8:15 (1/3 tbsp sweet potato)
S: 8:40- 10:30 nap

E: 10:30 (woke up on own)
A: 10:30-12
E: 12 (1/3 tbsp sweet potato)
A: 12:30-1 (bath)
E: 1 (breastmilk snack), awake
S: 1:25-2:25 (could not get to resettle)

E: 3pm
A: 3:30- 5
S: 5-6pm (catnap)

E: 6pm
A: 6:40-7:30
E: 7:30
S: 7:45 BEDTIME

8:30-11:20pm: Awake, could not resettle, fed 4oz breast milk at 10pm.  Given Tylenol for suspected teeth pain at 11
11:20: fell asleep (pain relief?)
4am: awake, 2 pu/pd (15 min total)
6am: awake, could not be resettled
7am: fed

Tuesday 1/1/2013
E: 7am
A: 7:20-8:00
E: 8:00 (1/3 tbsp sweet potato)
S: 9:00-11 (fussed at 10:20, back to sleep after shh/pat)

E: 11am
A: 11:30-1:30
E: 1:30 (1tbsp sw potato)
E: 2:15 (2 oz breastmilk)
S: 2:30pm- 4pm (couldnt resettle)

E:4:20
A:4:40-6
E: 6(other side)
E: 7:30
S: 8 (needs shh/pat and soothing to fall asleep)-- never really sleeps, fusses on an off until 10pm, at which pt we try a dose of tylenol (teeth??)

E: 10pm - tried to feed, not very hungry at all.  Ate maybe an ounce? 
10-11 still awake
S: 11-1:30
1:30-2 awake, needs help to resettle
3:30-4 awake, help to resettle
5:30-6 awake, help to resettle
E: 7:30 (we woke her up)

Wednesday 1/2/13
E: 7:30 (we woke her up as she had been up every 2 hours throughout the night)
A: 8:00-10:15 (E: 1 Tsp avocado at 9:30)
E: breastmilk "top off" 10:15
S: 10:30-12:15 (resettled at 12:05)

E: 12:30 (small feeding, maybe b/c of pre-nap "top off")


THIS IS WHERE WE ARE TODAY

What do you think?  Anything you can see that I can do differently?  I would SO VERY MUCH appreciate any type of feedback and/or assistance.  Given our last few days: What are possible reasons for waking daily at 5:30/6am?  If it is hunger, should feeding her more the previous day help this?  Should we try waking to sleep at 5am?  After how long should I suspect teething issues as opposed to just difficulty settling (it is not obvious by looking in her mouth or b/c of any specific behaviors other than maybe prolonged difficulty sleeping).  Also, should I try to keep her up for 3 hours and do an afternoon nap at 2pm (instead of 1pm) b/c she often does not show signs of being tired after just 2-2.5 hours of afternoon wake time?

Does she not need sleep?  Because with her staying awake or an extended period at night and waking throughout the night, she is getting 10-12 hours per entire day.  We are going crazy here. :(

THank you in advance-
 Tori
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 19:00:45 pm by tori1083 »

Offline JennŠ

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Re: Trying to start routine with 6mo after Reflux and AP
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 01:04:05 am »
Going to pop this over to EASY for you.  Welcome to BW!!
 When you're soaring through the air, I'll be your solid ground.  Take every chance you dare.  I'll still be there when you come back down.

Offline amayzie

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hi hon!! Welcome to the boards!!

I think that at the moment you might be having some trouble with the early waking and the night waking because she is ready to start moving towards 2 naps. Have a read of the sticky below and it will give you a thorough explanation- PLEASE feel free to ask any questions!
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

As far as the rigidity of the EASY- i would say go with your gut a bit.. i would suggest keeping rigid to start with the order of the EASY, and trying to stay consistent with how you are settling her to sleep.. but as far as the length of naps and time between feeds- this can be really tricky if you don't have your A time right. It's important that the A time is long enough that she becomes tired for the naps and the nights- but not so long that she is over tired. I think with touchy ones that the line between UT and OT is a fine one- you know- 5-10 mins either way and you'll have a mess on your hands!! ::)

As far as being prescriptive with A times- you'll see a lot of 'averages' listed on this site and in the posts. I'm a big fan of quoting the average A times myself- it more just gives you a ball park to aim for. So generally i suggest that at 6 months you may be aiming for a 3 hour A time- some babies might need less- and some more! It gives you a starting place.

Also- you have had a hugely rough go with 6 months of reflux and baby number 2!! It might take a little longer this time around to get your LO onto a nice routine- but things like swaddling, darkness and white noise are all great plans!
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline tori1083

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Amazyie, thank you so much for your response.

She was up every 2 hours last night (abt 30min each) after fighting sleep until 11pm (3hrs total in nap time yesterday).  Honestly, do you think all this will actually work out?  We are willing to keep working at it if we can be sure there will be a time when it pays off and we can get a full night of sleep.

Question: If I delay her nap for 3 hours of awake time, I worry that she will basically be going to sleep hungry.  She handles the 3 hours of awake time just fine, but I have been giving her a bit of an extra feeding before her nap to ensure she doesn't wake up hungry.  However, when she wakes up, her feeding is another short one.  I wonder if I am setting up a snacking situation if I keep doing this.  We are doing solids during activity time, but she is still just learning and really getting only about 1t-1T of veggie puree.  Should I discontinue this "top off" feeding before her nap?  Are six months able to go up to 5 hours before next breastfeeding?

Tracy and others on this forum have insisted that if we get the day times correct and (at this age) down to two 2-hour naps per day, the nights will work out fine.  Why is this true?  I think we could easily get up to two 1.5-hour naps with 3 hours of activity in between.  What if we never get up to 2 hours (even after trying to resettle her)? Will we ever get sleep at night?  Is there something fundamentally impossible about night-time sleep if the days are not 100% perfect.  We are having a really hard time understanding the night wakings.

I realize my questions make me sound like an insane person.  It is just that my husband and I are really struggling right now.  Thank God I am not working or in school right now.  But, my husband is working and I ask him to take a lot of the late-late night wakings so that she doesn't smell breastmilk on me and want to eat (I feel like my smell was aggravating her in the first few days of trying this approach).  It is just hard and we are feeling so down about it all.

I greatly appreciate any and all suggestions and assurances.

-Tori
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 19:22:01 pm by tori1083 »

Offline amayzie

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Oh honey!! The questions are fine! You don't so much sound insane as just a super tired and desperate mumma!!

Ok- so.... She should be able to go 5 hours without a feed- especially if she's getting a little bit of solids (even a small amount). Give it a go. It sounds like she is snacking if she's not eating a full feed. She'll wake up if she's hungry and you'll know!

Has she had her 6 month growth spurt? That one was a killer for us and may explain some of your worst nights.

I think that you'll be on a much better footing if you can get down to the 2 naps. Don't panic if they aren't 2 hours each- aim for 1.5 hours each- and don't worry if one is shorter. You can manage shorter naps by offerring an earlier bed time. At 6 months our guy was often doing a 2 hour or 1.5 hour AM nap and a 40 min-1 hour PM nap no problems. You'll still be expecting one to 2 feeds at night- most probably one feed- but not too much more than that.

Keep at it for a few more days and then reassess. I like to work in blocks of 3-4 days- this gives you a good change to get  a routine bedded in.
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline tori1083

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Thank you again!

Yesterday went well- two 1.5hr naps after 3 hrs of activity.  After giving everything more thought, we decided to try to feed her at 9pm (we had wondered if she was UT bc of fighting sleep the previous nights) and then try bedtime.  She went to sleep easily, I did a dreanfeed at 11:30 and then she slept through the night!!  We woke her this morning at 7 to eat. She did 3 hrs of activity this morning and then took a solid 2 hr nap.  Whoo!

9.5 hours of nighttime sleep plus 3-4 hrs napping seems a little on the low side, but we will prob try this sched for a few more days and then maybe gradually move the last feeding up (like 8:55, 8:50, etc).

What do you think?

Wed 1/2/13
E 7;30
A 8-10:30 (veggie 9am)
S 10;30-12;15

E 12;30
A 1- 3;30
S 3:30-5

E 5;15
A
E 7:15
A
E 9
S 9;30
E 11;30

Thurs 1/3/2013
E 7
A 7;30-10 (veggies at 9)
S 10;05-12;15

E 12;15
A 12;45- 3;15 (veggies 2pm)






Offline tori1083

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Two nights ago, she slept from 9:30-7 (with DF at 11:30).  Yesterday, naps were perfectly 2 hours each (two of them).  But, last night, she was up a lot again.

E 7
A
S 10

E 12
A
S 3:15

E 5:15
A
E 7:30
A
E 9
S 9:30

E 11

Then, woke at 3am (her white noise ran out of battery life) (easily settled), 4am (easily settled), and again at 5:15- never really went back to sleep, but had no problem not eating until 6:45am today.


Is the night waking due to comprehensively not getting enough sleep?  Should we start trying to move bedtime earlier than after a feeding at 9pm (though, she had GREAT difficulty with a 7 or 745 bedtime).

Thanks!!

Offline amayzie

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Great job on the naps!! Yeah- i reckon you should move that bed time forward gradually as it is a really long stretch to bed time- and that could be making her over tired. Just try moving slowly rather than jumping to the 'ideal' bed time right away. Also- you could have a day with a cat nap if you are concerned she is getting too tired- i just found that once the CN was gone that it became more trouble than it was worth- but all cubs are different. Your LO may respond to a longer transition to 2 naps.
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline tori1083

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Hi,
Thank you for another response!

Naps were ok yesterday, 1.5 hrs, 1 hr, then catnap from 6:45-7:30 (it was dark and we were in the car).  She at at 7:40 and 9pm and then never went to sleep until after 1am.  We were sort of losing our minds by that point, getting up and walking to the other side of the house every 20 minutes, so we broke down and put her in bed with us-- because, our sleep deprived minds were thinking that if she is going to be up every 30 minutes (at least), then at least it would be easier to deal with her.  Even after putting her in in bed with us, she had great difficulty settling down.  We gave her tylenol, wondering if it is teeth, and after 20 min, she fell asleep.  She still woke 2 more times in the night and needed settling.

I totally see that putting her in bed with us may not be a great answer, but we were so tired.  Also, I just have this feeling something isn't right because I don't understand how a baby could 1) be awake that much, and 2) constantly wake up out of a sleep.  She has a history of reflux and I have taken her to a specialist and a chiro (twice).  I am having a really hard time figuring out what is going on: Like, is it reflux, upset tummy, teeth, or just wanting to be held.  Are touchy babies just like this?  I honestly don't know.

We have another chiropracter apt. and well-check visit this coming week and I will ask these questions.  However, as before, I am not very hopeful that our doctors will have answers or good suggestions for us.

We haven't tried gripe water since she was very little, but maybe I'll try it again tonight before bed.  It may not help, but it won't hurt.

Also, I consume a moderate amt of soy (I am a vegetarian)- so I wonder if that is having any effect.  I have already done a dairy elimination (for 2+ weeks) and that has not helped.  She doesn't seem like she is having tummy pain - but we are just guessing at this point.  Also, I do often drink a cup of 1/2 caff coffee in the evening.  I haven't noticed a direct correlation to any issues (and she naps fine after I consume it in the morning), but I wonder if that is a problem at night for her?

I feel sad that I do not know my baby better than this.  I feel like, if we could only figure out the problem, we could take steps to fix it.

Then again, my husband keeps asking- maybe its nothing and she has just been overly-coddled and needs to cry?  I don't want to go there, b/c she doesn't really settle herself and would just end up screaming in hysterics.  Plus, I wouldn't want to leave her alone until I am 100% sure she is not in any pain.

I wonder if I should post this in touchy baby or breastfeeding area?

Any thoughts?
Thanks again!!!


Offline amayzie

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Hi hon!! WHat a trick she is!! It sounds like it might have been pain in her mouth perhaps the night that she fell asleep after the tylenol- 20 mins after meds then out sounds like it to me! Also- teething can cause a reflux flare up- so she may have also been in pain from that. As for the soy that you are having- some babies have a milk and soy protien intolerance. I dont have much experience with that but can get some ladies who do to have a look.

PLEASE don't be too sad that you can't understand what the baby is needing- they can be really really hard to read- SHE probably doesn't even know what the problem is!! Also- you are totally correct that she isn't coddled too much- you NEVER want to leave a baby to cry- especially if they are in pain!! She may well just be wanting to be held- especially if she's a bit fussy.

Also- reflux meds need to be upped with weight- is she on meds?

I'll get the reflux ladies to have a look at this as they might have some more ideas for you- where to go next or some thougts... Also- have a look at these...

Colic, Reflux, & Crying This is the CRC board- has lots of great ideas
Sleep and the reflux baby
Does my LO have food intolerances?
Success story of treatment for digestive problems plus info on elimination diet
Reflux 101 - General reflux information
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline tori1083

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Hello and thank you for the continued support. We are still trying to be in tune with reflux. It does not seem to be a correlation with diet and then breastmilk. I have started giving her a little bit of oatmeal at night. I really do not get the feeling that it is reflux related specifically.  I think more than anything, she is in the pattern over and over tired. My husband and I are going to keep plotting on. We have come to the conclusion that what she really needs the most is sleep. We want to do whatever it takes in order for her to get longer stretches of nighttime sleep so that she can get caught up. We put her down to sleep last night at 6:45 and she initially slept a three hour stretch. She woke up hungry at 9:45 and eagerly ate 4oz of bm. She had a hard time settling and then I ended up feeding her again around 11 PM after which time she went to sleep. She's continued to wake up several times throughout the night but went back to sleep quickly after we patted her Back a little bit. She woke up at 5 AM and I suspected she was hungry, so I fed her, she ate about 2 ounces, and then went to sleep until we woke her up at 7:30 AM. Our plan is to continue to try and try for her to get more nighttime sleep. After that point it may be more appropriate to work on weaning off or reducing our involvement or looking at other reasons why she may be waking.  I've had to do some convincing of my husband, but we are not going to let her CIO  because we know that will only perpetuate the overtired. In addition to other effects.

Do you think I am correct  in implementing a very early bedtime? And then just feeding her a few times throughout the night in order to encourage more nighttime sleep?

Offline amayzie

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your plan sounds perfect! an early bed time is a great way to manage OT
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline tori1083

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We are hanging on by a thread.  Two nights in a row, we have tried early bedtime (last night 6:45, tonight 7pm).  She will sleep 2-3 hours and then be awake for 2-3 hours. And then, be up every single hour all through the night. This is with constant effort on our part to help her sleep.

How do others do it?  Between my husband's job, our 3 year old, and me starting advanced math classes up again on Monday- we are feeling extremely distressed, desperate, and depressive.

She just will not settle.  When she does settle, she is up again 10-20 minutes later.

We have tried shh/pat, rubbing, pu/pd, rocking, feeding, etc.  NOTHING helps her sleep or stay asleep.

Really struggling with husband who is blaming me for our losing sleep because he would like to either put her into bed with us or let her CIO.  I just feel like giving in (to cosleeping and not trying to get her to learn independent sleep) b/c it is so hard and I need his support but he keeps demanding answers and results and blaming me otherwise.

Offline amayzie

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OH HONEY!!!! HUGS!!!!

TBH- if things are causing you a big stress i would take a break on the independant sleep for a night or 2 and co-sleep or something similar. In the book Tracey the baby whisperer suggests bringing a matress in with the baby rathe than bringing tha baby in with you- but i have never done that- i've always just brought Hamish in with me. You can ALWAYS undo a co-sleeping habit or anything like that easily once you know that there's no pain or anything else going on.

I'm going to move this thread over to the night waking thread to see if they have more ideas for you as i really think that the nights are causing you the most trouble- once they are a little more settled you can look at the EASY

Also- it is NOT YOUR FAULT!!! BABIES ARE HARD WORK!! YOU ARE A GREAT MUMMA!! I just feel that it gets to a point that if it's more upsetting to you to have them awake or in the cot or whatever than it is to have them in bed with you then just do what you need to. Bring her in with you- then once you have recharged a little you can tackle the sleeping again..
Katy, Mummy to Hamish!


Offline jessmum46

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Hi just popping on to offer a fresh pair of eyes for you.  First of all (((hugs))) - I'm so sorry things have been so tough for you - sleep deprivation is just awful  :'(. Totally agree with Katy that if its stressing you all out too much then just co sleep for a bit until you feel ready to tackle things again.

Starting with the basics - the most common reasons for frequent night wakings are prop issues, discomfort, hunger or overtiredness.  Let me ask a few questions to see if there's anything we can put a finger on. 

How far had you got with PUPD and shh pat?  Was she falling asleep in the crib by herself or were you/ are you still shh-patting all the way to sleep?  How consistent have you been with it?  Please note this I'm not implying any criticism by asking this - when you are exhausted I think we would all do absolutely anything to get LO back to sleep!

Is her reflux fully controlled?  Is she on meds or has she been in the past?  Any teething?  How long has she been on solids and when in the day do you offer them?

Do you do any feeds overnight except the DF?  How many bfs are you doing during the day?  Is her weight gain good?


It looks like you have been getting some good naps :). Really well done - that's a huge step.  I think given how broken her nights are though she is almost certainly struggling with chronic OT and the best way to get over that is to make sure her day isn't too long - max 12h if naps are good, shorter if not, and do whatever you can at night to maximise her sleep.  Does she sleep better at night if you co-sleep? If so I would be tempted to say keep the day to a reasonable length, co-sleep at night for a few days to help her get caught up and then re start the PUPD/shh pat if you have ruled out discomfort.  It sounds like she responds to it well and will learn quickly :)

(((Hugs))) again

Offline ENMS

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hey hon, lots and lots of (((HUGS)))

I agree with Katy, this is not your fault at all!!!!!

It does sound like discomfort to me hon.  Waking up so often and having trouble resettling. How long has she been having oatmeal at night? Does it seem worse ever since? At her age, especially being a refluxer I would definitely advise holding off on solids at night. Also, cereals can be really hard on the tummy, it is usually best to start with fruits and / or vegs.  Also solids, especially cereals can worsen reflux.

Is she on reflux meds at all?

Elise