Desperate and no idea what is happening with 21 month old

[Lyna]

Hello,

I am sorry to create a new topic but I am not able to pin point what is happening. We sleep trained our DD at 4 months following the BW and it worked wonders, with the usual bumps on the way but always able to get back on track. A few weeks ago she started fighting to go to bed. We though it was the 18 month regression showing up a bit late so we took it easy and did a bit of APOP to prevent her from getting into an OT loop.

Unfortunately it collided with Holiday. We went on a 10 day trip with a couple who has a toddler about her age. It was all excitement and games and sun and sea (we live in the Southern hemisphere). Besdides, her little friend has no routine whatsoever so it was diffcult to try to put her down and regular BT. In her excitement she tried to get out of her camping cot and to our surprise she managed to do so! This meant that we were too worried to let her sleep on her own and one of us started sleeping in the room with her (more APOP but we had no choice).

A few days ago our angel baby was irecognizable, screaming her lungs out and not going down no matter what. We were only able to put her down at 11 with us in our bed (first time ever)!! The next day we found ourselves so desperate that we ended up driving around hoping for her to go down; didn't work. BT at 10 but not in the cot.

The next morning when she was having breakfast she started crying a bit as if something hurt in her mouth. We thought: "aha! she is teething, that explains a lot". However, we don't see anything bursting through and she never complained or suffered much while teething before (no fever, no need for paracetamol or anything).

We just came back home and were hoping that going back to normality would help a bit. We did manage to put her down today at 8 but she is fighting the cot a lot which is making me wonder if she is ready to move to a bed. I am sorry, I know that this seems all over the place but we move from "great sleeper" to "hell on earth at bed time" (I mean this in a good way).

She is normally a good napper having one nap that goes from 1.5 to 3 h and 11 h at night. However in the past few days she has been sleeping between 9 and 10 hours at night and naps from 45 mins to 2.5h (specially when she was OT). Last night we had BT at 10. DH slept with her also because she has been having NW (as if she was having nightmares which we solved with pating). She woke up at 7 this morining and napped from 11.50 to 1.05 pm. BT at 8 (in my arms and then patting in the cot), quite rough but still a bit better than the past few nights.

we are desperate for advice, as we feel we are back to square one after 21 months of good EASY routines.

[Claudiamummy]

Very quick from as just about to hit the hay....

Don't panic, I would say things have just got off track and yr lo is OT

Gently and slowly would be key....

Get your bedtime routine back on track with lots of wd time, a top tip of mine is tucking lo into her cot and reading a story until I see those eyes going.... Then pow!! Lights off
Go back and re-settle when needed but do not get into long drawn out situations wiwo
Don't let daytime nap happen too early, if its unavoidable, cap it and do an afternoon one so its long so long before bt, but ideally get the nap where it should be. If lo wu after 1.5hr or less, defo try to resettle

Remember be confident, lo sense unease and uncertainty you know what you are doing, just hunker down and make small changes nothing that will upset lo too much, and you will get there

Hth a bit
Xx

[Lyna]

Thanks for your reply,

The night went relatively well and I was getting hopeful. She slept 10.45 hours (close to the usual 11). However she was out with DH and fell asleep in the car on the way back home at around 12.30 (it used to happen every now and then before but without much trouble we would get her from the car into her bed). Unfortunately she woke up in the process this time. DH tried to put her in bed and started screaming. I took her and did a bit of WD and managed to put her in bed and she was calm (this is a step forward from the last few days). Then I walked out.  she started crying again. I tried to resettle twice but didn't work and she is up and playing now. Basically we just had a 15 minute nap.

I will take your advice on the WD which seems to be the only thing working now (she did not need much wd before).

The story reading is a bit more complicated. We tried to include it a number of times in our BT ritual but after the bath she was always ready to go down. Besides she loves books and often during the day she wants to "read" them on her own or have us read them for her. So it is a common daily activity that happens all the time. Besides her being ready to go down, I am worried she thinks we were back on A time. Is that a risk? How can we introduce the story telling in the BT ritual? I do want to do it but probably not until we are back on track.

[Truly Blessed]

The next morning when she was having breakfast she started crying a bit as if something hurt in her mouth.

Hun, have you checked her mouth for any sores. I am wondering if there's a chance she may have Hand Foot and Mouth. Don't panic it's just a thought, and it isn't serious but does play havoc with sleep and mood. Here is a link for you in case there is any doubt:

Hand Foot and Mouth Disease..the signs.

How are things going 

When you return from a change of environment things often go AWOL. IME sticking with the routine that worked before and riding it out usually comes good in the end. WRT the reading thing, if she likes to look at books by herself (clever girl  could you allow her to do this at BT by a nice relaxing night light. At least this way she can unwind before sleeping.

If she still isn't responding to WI/WO I would recommend using Gradual Withdrawal. Our DS has never been a fan of WI/WO but GW works every time.

Hope this helps Hun. Sorry you've had no reply for a couple of days, I just spotted you.

(Hugs)

Vicki.x.

[michaeljacknnugg]

Just wondering if books are too stimulating, if talking to her softly would be an option? A lot of Los her age just want to interact with the book rather than succumb to the story.

[Lyna]

Thank you all!

I don't think it is the H, F & M disease. She looks alright and no rash at all aywhere. Besides we are absolutely sure there is no pain. We are back home and the schedule has gone more or less back to normal and her routine days are back.

However, Bed time is still being very messy. She seems to be sabotaging the bed time routine allthrough. She normally used to love the bath (and still does as long as it is not to go to bed). We then had Toothbrusging or Mr. White finger (my finger with a gauze) and she used to enjoy the tooth brushing (still does during the day). and the moment we walk into the room to start getting her into her pijamas she starts complaining in the best case scenario, but crying is now the norm. For the past week or so she has been fighting BT and we have had to stay next to her almost until she is asleep. We used to have the BT routine and then drop her in her bed and she would do the rest on her own...that seems like a long lost memory now.

I do think books could be too stimulating because she gets really excited looking at the pictures and saying what it is etc. Long WD calms her but it is NOT taking er to sleep on her own. We still have to be there, talk, sing or tap. Moreover, I have the impression that she is reluctant to suck her thumb (which she always does to sleep), as if she knew that it would drive her to sleep. I am amazed to think that she is so consciously fighting it.

Note that none of this is happening for the nap. She is going down well and drifts on her own without much trouble. However, the night process is driving her to have a later BT than usual and we end up having an EW. We let her compensate with the nap which lately has been of 3 hours.

Our routine is looking more or less like this: WU at 6, nap at 12-12.30 for 2.5 - 3 hours. We try to head for a 7.30-8 BT (depending on the time she woke up from the nap) but end up having a 9 pm BT after 1 hour of fighting it.

Thanks for all your replies and support!

[Lolly]

Have you tried capping her nap at 2 hours? It could be that the daytime sleep is too long now and she needs a longer A time to bed to be properly tired enough.

If her current routine is not working what about changing it around - can she have her pyjamas on somewhere else like downstairs with a cup of milk and a story there? Then carry on with the tooth brushing etc.

Laura

[Truly Blessed]

Have you tried capping her nap at 2 hours? It could be that the daytime sleep is too long now and she needs a longer A time to bed to be properly tired enough.

I agree with Laura Hun. It's quite common that a WD that has worked in the past no longer works all of a sudden due to development. If there is language development and she is suddenly interested in words and pictures I guess there is a possibility that the books are currently stimulating her.

I know how tempting it can be to allow a LO to nap longer to CU, but usually a longer night/shorter night combination is best.

x.

[Lyna]

We did think about capping the nap but since she is having 9 hour nights, I am worried she might get into an OT loop again. However, I don't think UT is the problem because there have been a couple of times in which we have tried to put her down knowing that she IS tired and the reaction is the same. However, the daytime could be "stealing" from the nightime so I will give it a try to cap the nap tomorrow and see how it goes.

We will try changing the routine a bit as you suggest and YES!! There is definetly language development (massive, as she is exposed to three langauges and all of them are coming out simultaneously!). She went down today at 8.50. Still later than she should have, but slightly earlier than other days. I know we will eventually get the time right and we will soon be out of the OT/UT loop. My real concern is the apparent prop that we have created with us having to be there, talking, singing or tapping almost until she is asleep. I am 5.5 months pregnant and I really want us to get back to the absolute independent sleeper we had before the new baby comes, otherwise this could get really tough...

Thanks again!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

We did think about capping the nap but since she is having 9 hour nights, I am worried she might get into an OT loop again.

I totally understand this BTDT (been there done that) and it's very hard to wake a shattered LO, but in me experience (IME) it is the lesser of 2 evils, to lengthen the night and to prevent the EW. However shortening the day may be necessary in order for her to tack on night sleep, so I would keep an eye on her near BT and trust your Mother's Instinct (MI) on that one  .

There is definetly language development (massive, as she is exposed to three langauges and all of them are coming out simultaneously!).

This may be hard now, but WOW! how fantastic! Where are you located, and what languages is she learning  I worked in Spain, so I have (had) conversational Spanish, so I am keen to expose DS to this, as he is crazy about words and has been a very early talker, so his English vocabulary and his talking are way beyond his years at the moment  .

My real concern is the apparent prop that we have created with us having to be there, talking, singing or tapping

I think Gradual Withdrawal could really suit her Hun, and I would recommend you start that as soon as possible. Without Independent sleep skills, it is much harder to know what her sleep needs are and figure out the right routine to suit.

If you want to do this I can take you through it step by step if you need me to. Lots of us find that our IS go wonky at all different stages of development and it is hard to take, because it feels like such a huge step back, I know this because I have struggled with it, but it's just one of those things, and unfortunately can be ongoing through so many different regressions.  However a previously ST LO is usually much quicker to catch on, once you start to ST again 

Any thoughts 

(Hugs)

x.

[Lyna]

Thank you Sammy!

Things seem to be slightly improving. 15 minutes BT earlier last night translated into WU at 6.30 (improvement from 6). She went down for the nap at 12.45 and we capped it to two hours. She was not happy but we have had situations in which even if she wakes on her own after a good nap she is a bit grumpy so no big deal there.

We wanted to have BT between 7.30 and 7.45 but we were late for a number of reasons an only managed to try to put her down at 8.10. We changed the routine a bit. She did not fight the bath mainly because we were distracting her with a magazine with dogs (she loves them). Pijamas in our bedroom and we sat down and agreed on reading just a few pages of the dog magazine and then heading to bed. In terms of the routine, it went rather smooth. Going to bed was much better than the other days and she fought it for only 20 min and I DID manage to leave the room before she was asleep.

We live in Mozambique which is an ex-Portuguese colony. My husband is Italian and I am Colombian so it's Portuguese, Italian and Spanish. DH and I are consistent on speaking to her our mother tongue while the environment and a nanny that gives us a hand every now and then is in Portuguese.

We would really appreciate the support with the Gradual Withdrawal. I will be back tomorrow to let you know how the night went. Thanks a million!

Lina

PS: I am not sure what ST stands for though.

[Lolly]

ST - sleep training!

That sounds like a much better bedtime - well done!

Laura

[Lyna]

Definitely much better Laura! We were very happy with the twist in the routine so we will try it again tonight and if it goes well, we have a new routine. We had a NW at 12, but I am pretty sure it is because she was all wet. She probably squeezed the bottle nipple (we always leave one with water) without knowing and it probably started dripping wetting her sheets and pajamas. She had her eyes closed while I changed her but she was slightly awake. I thought I was going to put her down and that was it, but it took me half an hour to finally settle her. She was half awake just to make sure that I was still there. I did a bit of WI/WO but it was not working so ended up just talking quietly to her. Fortunately it was all very quiet. There was very little crying. Mainly winning when I left, which would eventually escalate so I would walk back in.

WU at 7.05!!! Yaaaaay!! So we seem to be getting back on track with the schedule. We now need support to get rid of the effects of our prolonged APOP. But it is all soooooo much better no

Thanks again!

[Lyna]

Ok

This is how it went today. After a very welcome WU at 7.05 she went to nap at 1.15 pm and we capped the nap at two hours just like yesterday. The adjustment to the routine seems to be working well though I suspect it is because she no longer knows what is coming next. Just to give you an example, we had a rainy day today so we stayed at home and did some drawings with finger paints. She was full of paint from head to toes for which we headed for a bath really early. She started fighting it until I reassured her that we were not going to sleep yet. She then went very happy and had a long playful bath like she hadn't had in a while. Could she sabotage the new routine once she realizes it is actually a new routine heading to BT?

Anyhow. It all went well and smooth until we started heading to her room at around 7.45. She knew the time had come and started crying and screaming for a while. We calmed her and put her down but she kept on crying or would simply stand up and crawl out of the cot. When putting her back she would complain though not as strongly as a few weeks ago. Definitly much more manageable, but still took us 45 minutes before she finally drifted.

We are currently having a combination of GW and WI/WO. I am wondering if we should stick to the WI/WO? After all, she was an absolutely independent sleeper just a month or so ago. She still is for the nap. Drifts on her own without any problem. Could it be that she wants a big bed now. We want to make the change now that she is climbing out of her cot. However, I was worried that the two things together could make matters more difficult. Should we tackle the ST now and then make the change or could the change be actually the answer?

Lina B.

[Truly Blessed]

Hiya, glad things are improving  .

From experience moving to a bed opens up a whole can of worms  but for some LO's sleep improves when the bars are gone and they feel more comfortable. For eg, a friend of mine's LO had a co-seeping habit they just couldn't break as he would come into their room several times a night and they were so exhausted they would give in. Then I suggested maybe he just likes a big bed, so they put him in a double and his Daddy would go into his bed with him if he woke, then 2 weeks later he stopped bothering. So you just never know  . Obviously climbing out of the cot is a big worry as LO's have broken bones (sorry to worry you more  ) You could pad the floor with cushions next to her cot  so if safety is a real issue then I think it should be a sooner rather than later thing. Lots of parents (including us) put a baby gate at the door so that LO knows they can't leave, which does help but doesn't keep them in their bed     Will she be moving to a bed or just taking the side of her cot. If the latter, maybe you could do that and just put up a bed guard so that it's not a huge change but it is safer. What do you think 

Whether you do ST now or later depends on the above really. There is a chance you would have to ST once you make the change to bed anyway, so I guess it's all food for thought 

x.