16 months, gradual withdrawal support please

[HollysMumma]

Hi there, a long time BW follower and forum reader, this is my first post, and I am really hoping someone can help me with our current sleep problems.

We have had NW for many months, between 1-6 each night, average of 3. There's lots of SA, and this seems to have affected particularly bedtimes where she would cry (hard) when I left the room each time. She is much better usually if DH puts her down. Also a recent holiday has left us with some AP, where I would calm her to sleep with a hand on her back.

In an attempt to sort this out, I started gradual withdrawal with DD about 2 weeks ago, for naps, bedtime and night wakings. This seemed like the best fit for us, as she is fairly feisty WI/WO was too much of a tease for her.

Her typical day is:

Wake 7 am
Nap 12-2pm (if I'm lucky)
Bed 6 pm

My biggest problem now is that even though I sitting with her, hand available for taking if needed, she is taking ages to fall asleep at bedtime. Its a lot longer than before, and than if DH was to go in to tuck her in. Naps are okay I think, about 15 mins to get off, but at night time it's minimum of 1 hour but lately 2 hours.

She is running around in the cot, throwing out her dummy, standing up, talking lots, yelling, standing on her head (almost) and squirming like a worm.

Am I doing something wrong with the GW, or is this normal? I don't think it UT as she shows tired signs, but seems to just rev up as soon as bath and books are done and light is out.

Any thoughts or similar experiences would be a great help. I am not sure if I should continue or am making things worse. Thanks!

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

I have done GW with DS a few times and am doing at again right now. Looking at her routine what is immediately obvious is how short her day is. I think she is simply UT at BT, hence her taking so long to settle. For eg: when our DS was her age his routine was this:

WU 6.00

Nap 11.00 to 1.00

BT 7.00

Lots of LO's handle a 13 hour day on a 2 hour nap. So if you go with this:

WU 7.00

Nap 12.00 to 2.00

BT 8.00

As you say her nap is 2 hours if you're lucky you might even want to try pushing the nap out to 5.5 A time and then the same to BT. She could probably do with longer in the morning too  Do you know if she prefers a shorter morning or afternoon 

I'll wager she will go over in minutes with longer to BT.  This will be making GW so much harder for you than it needs to be. Can you tell me is she going over quickly for her nap 

(Hugs) I think this can be easily fixed 

x.

[HollysMumma]

I guess that UT is possible, we used to have an 8pm bedtime but lots of NW, the 2-1 nap transition and EW led me to move it forward. This seemed to help for a bit, with the EW especially. Though it was a while ago so I can definitely try again with later.

I would say she prefers shorter mornings. She would nap for two hours at about 10.00, but cannot make it through to bedtime if I let that happen and refuses a second nap (tried for weeks also!).  Though maybe if I push that to 11, she might make it through to 7. Anything is worth a try!

She falls asleep for naps in about 20 mins, sometimes quicker, and can sometimes completely self settle.

Thanks so much for your reply, hope the above clarifies a bit and that you are right, this can be easily fixed!

[HollysMumma]

Quick update, the last few days have been interesting, 3 days waking at 5.30 am, nap at 9 for an hour, nap at 3 for an hour and then bed at 6.45, still resisting for about an hour. Even took her to a theme park today and still restless tonight! Could it really be UT? Seems like not enough sleep if I add up the hours? I'm a bit lost.

PS. For anyone reading also thinking about GW, its had surprising and welcome effect on DD's SA in the daytime - I can now go to the toilet on my own without her screaming the house down

[Lolly]

PS. For anyone reading also thinking about GW, its had surprising and welcome effect on DD's SA in the daytime - I can now go to the toilet on my own without her screaming the house down

Lol! That's a nice bonus!

It does look like she could be OT with the short nights. I wonder if you are going to be doing 2 naps would she be better to do a really short 20 min cat nap in the morning and then *try* a longer nap after lunch.

What do you think?

Laura

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun,

I would say she prefers shorter mornings. She would nap for two hours at about 10.00, but cannot make it through to bedtime if I let that happen and refuses a second nap

It's frustrating! but I remember how DS used to get out of bed at 6.00 and nap at 8.30 for 1.5 hours way past when his nap should have been pushed out. But then things went wonky. So I came to the conclusion that even though they seem ready to sleep and can sleep, often it can be out of pure habit and their body clock being so used to it. When I pushed Sam's nap out he would yawn bang on his old nap time and rub his eyes, even though he did make it through to a lot later, amazing really.

Quick update, the last few days have been interesting, 3 days waking at 5.30 am, nap at 9 for an hour, nap at 3 for an hour and then bed at 6.45, still resisting for about an hour. Even took her to a theme park today and still restless tonight! Could it really be UT? Seems like not enough sleep if I add up the hours? I'm a bit lost.

Sorry Hun, just to clarify was this a result of trying the new routine/longer day or has this happened beforehand and you have gone with the flow 

How long is it since she made the transition to 1 nap 

Do you think maybe she wasn't ready for it  If so what Laura is suggesting is a good plan 

x.

[HollysMumma]

just to clarify was this a result of trying the new routine/longer day or has this happened beforehand and you have gone with the flow 

No the EW just seemed to happen, i assumed as a result of getting off to sleep too late after all the fussing I mentioned. Average was about 7:45pm. So she needed an extra nap in the morning to make it through the day. Not planned at all.

How long is it since she made the transition to 1 nap  ???Do you think maybe she wasn't ready for it 

Its been about 3 months since we started trying for one nap, with varying degrees of success. Really its been one nap for about 1.5 months. I may have rushed it - but I just couldn't get her to take an afternoon nap anymore, even with a short morning nap.
Also, the two playgroups we attend a week are at the key nap time in the morning, 9:30 to 11, so it suited our routine if we could make it work.

I have never tried such a short nap (20 mins) as I didn't expect they could make much difference - but maybe I was thinking of how i feel after a 20 minute nap So, a new plan could be:

Wake 7am (hopefully)
Catnap 9:30am for 20-30 mins
Big Nap 1pm for 2 hours
Bedtime 7pm

What do you think? BTW, our gradual withdrawal (aside from the wakeful shenanigans) is going very well, NW are few and v. short now.
Thanks for your time xx

[Truly Blessed]

Hi there,

Thanks for the info, that gives a clear picture of what's going on. Just one question Hun. When you tried the short am nap previously how long was her A time before the nap  I'm wondering if she may needs longer before the cat nap in order for it to be less restorative so she has a fighting chance of taking the 2nd one. I definitely think it's worth a try again though.

Also, is there anything else going on developmentally that could be affecting her sleep

Well done on the GW!  Once she is going over for all sleeps Independently you will have a clearer picture of what her sleep needs are I should think, so keep up the good work 

x.

[HollysMumma]

When you tried the short am nap previously how long was her A time before the nap 

It used to be wake at 7, nap at about 9:30-10:30 depending on when she started a yawn. So not long on the A front, 3 hours. It seems she could still take a nap about then though.

Im trying a short nap in the mornings again as you both have helpfully suggested, so I'll give that a few more days and see if it makes an impact on the restlessness. Maybe at 10 is about right?

Also, I've noticed that no matter what time I put her to bed, she's falling asleep at about 7:30-7:40 consistently. So I may try a 7:15-7:30 bedtime, just for fun.

Also, is there anything else going on developmentally that could be affecting her sleep

She's just started talking like mad. Loads. Nothing I can decipher unfortunately, but it did occur to me that could have been the reason. However, the long 'going over' seemed to start when I kicked off GW - I was worried that it may have been because i was in the room, I hadn't seen it previously. I was starting to think I should leave her to settle as I was causing the restlessness...

Thanks again, both of you! xx

[Truly Blessed]

Hi there,

I think a 10 o clock cat nap is worth trying Hun, for the reason we already discussed, you can't really go any later if you want to fit that 2nd nap in. Will you go for 20 or 30 minutes  How long do you think she would need after 30 mins before trying for the 2nd nap  What did you do last time  I'm trying to help you figure out whether the reason she refused last time was due to too short or too long before the 2nd nap  . The extra 30 mins before the cat nap could help with a bit of luck.

Also I think it's always worth trying something again because sometimes the reason it didn't work last time was something other than routine, and things constantly change IME  .

The 7.30 BT sounds like a good idea considering what you have said about her falling asleep at that time. LO's do have natural bio-rythmns so maybe that's just when her body clock clicks in for BT  Of course if she refuses the 2nd nap then that will need re-arranging  .

WRT the language explosion, it affected DS sleep massively, it was all over the place. It may be that it just coincided with GW making GW seem more relevant YK 

WI/WO has never worked for DS either, it winds him up now end!

Good Luck Hun.x.

[Truly Blessed]

Just one more thing Hun, even though you've no doubt thought of it already. I would make sure her WD is nice and long, and try and avoid anything too stimulating beforehand.

What does her WD consist of at the moment 

x.

[HollysMumma]

I've played around with her WD a bit, given the issues, but doesn't seem to have affected much. It's about 30mins; bath with DH, sleeping bag, 4 books, calming music and bed. Though I've had to ask DH to tone down the bath time fun

How long do you think it took for things to settle with your LO after the talking explosion? Maybe that's it and as you say, unfortunate timing for the GW!

As for the CN, I will try limiting to 20 mins, can plus ten minutes ie. 30 make that much difference?

We've had another funny day today, another EW at 5:30. Took her in the car at about 9:45, so she slept for 20 mins from 10:15. Then put her down when we were home, 1:45 pm, and tried for almost 2 hours for her second nap. Did not happen - but on the plus side she fell asleep 5 mins after I put her down at 6:30 pm. Was I just too late do you think? Maybe needs to be under 3 hrs A time. I have been spreadsheeting all the data for just over a week so I will do some investigation, but maybe its not that clear cut 

[Truly Blessed]

Though I've had to ask DH to tone down the bath time fun

LOL good luck with that one Hun!

How long do you think it took for things to settle with your LO after the talking explosion?

Gosh Honestly, I don't remember, I feel like he's been trying to talk since the day he was born LOL, and there are so many developmental regressions that have been and gone now

As for the CN, I will try limiting to 20 mins, can plus ten minutes ie. 30 make that much difference?

Amazingly enough it often really does  .

For some LO no matter how short the cat nap, a 2nd nap just doesn't happen, it's a common reason why people push through for 1 nap. I'm presuming a long am nap/pm cat nap is unlikely to work  although if it is OT preventing the 2nd nap and not UT it just might. Have you ever tried that    Obviously it's a long time to BT after a cat nap, but what else can you do, there isn't much option really 

I'd try the 20 min cat  nap as the next port of call  but maybe try for the 2nd nap 2.5 hours later to prevent OT from scuppering the 2nd nap.

Thoughts 

(Hugs)

x.

[HollysMumma]

So it's probably bit early to comment, but I tried today for a catnap at 10 AM. Took about 15 mins to go off, but I woke her after 20 mins and she was very grumpy to have been woken;)

Then after lunch I tried for the longer nap at 1pm; for an hour and twenty minutes she talked, rolled around, etc. no sleep at all.

Maybe the catnap should be 30 minutes, do you think she was too OT by the 1pm nap? We are going for a very early bed time tonight, she's a bit wobbly bless her. I feel bad for waking her 20 mins into her catnap, as she's now only had 20 mins all day.

I am considering just letting her sleep as long as she wants in the morning, and as you suggested, try a pm catnap again. It was many months since we last tried this configuration, maybe she won't refuse the PM nap now. I'm in a pickle

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun, if the cat nap is 20 minutes I would try for 2.5 hours later, if 30 mins then 3 hours, this is what works for lots of other LO's, but obviously that's a guide as they're all different.

I am considering just letting her sleep as long as she wants in the morning, and as you suggested, try a pm catnap again. It was many months since we last tried this configuration, maybe she won't refuse the PM nap now. I'm in a pickle

To be honest, this sounds like your best option for her, because at least if she refuses the 2nd nap, she will cope with the day better, and I would just adjust BT accordingly.

HTH Hun. Things constantly change, so I wouldn't rule it out as working for her now. If it doesn't then what you do is push the 1st nap out very slowly but 10 mins or so every 4 days ish, then you will be left with 1 nap, but it will give her a chance to adjust gradually.

(Hugs)

x.