Some EASY questions

[Ima shel Alon]

TBH, I am not sure what happened at night. Could she be teething? You say that you can feel a tooth coming out, this can be quite painful!
 How are you trying to settle her? Are you doing PU/PD?

Just waiting to see now as to how long her sleep is.  I'm crossing my fingers for a restorative nap!!!

I am curious to hear how this nap was.

I'm just thinking that if she does have a restorative nap now and then a catnap it could well equal this, no?  Or would it be better as she would be more tired at bedtime due to the catnap!

Could be, but then you'd know that it's still too much day sleep for her and will cap AM nap at 1.5h.

[Hayleys]

Hi

So after putting her down after the 3hr 40 mins of activity time in the morning, she actually only did a 1hr 10 min sleep!!  I heard her stir at the 35 min mark, she did one cry out and then went back to sleep!  She woke happy but was rubbing her eyes a little as I was feeding her shortly afterwards.

We actually had to go out this afternoon but I was confident that I could plan her PM nap for her to have on the car journey home.  I left the venue when we were 3hrs 35 mins into her next A time, as there was a 5 minute walk to the car and I thought she may fall asleep in her push chair.  She didn't though and actually didn't fall asleep in the car until 5 mins into the journey.  This made her PM activity time 3 hrs 50 mins.  She then woke after 40 min.  The car was stationary and I could see her in the rear view mirror.  I spoke to her at this point but she may have actually gone back to sleep otherwise.  Perhaps I should have left her to sleep some more, especially as she didn't have that restorative nap.  I was aware that time was ticking though and I wanted to give her the next feed and then also get her to bed at a reasonable time.

Anyway she did seem tired during the rest of the day, but not too bad!  We did actually give her some meds for her teeth before putting her to bed, as I was thinking the same thing that this may have played or still be playing a part in the problems we are having at the moment.  I didn't yesterday though! The thing is before when I have felt she is teething, she has been really clingy, not playing happily with her toys and I can see that she is not herself.  At the moment though she is the complete opposite, but we did have this problem last night and also bed time is an issue.  Could it just be affecting her at night?

So unfortunately bedtime did not go well.  I put her down for bed at 7:50 pm (2O mins less than her full A time and in the morning she had woken at 7:10).  I did her usual routine but again I gave the bottle 45 mins before putting her down as I wanted to see what time she would fall asleep.  She looked tired when I put her down but again gain she struggled and I ended up pushing her in her pushchair - really not good!

Last night I did not do PU/PD with her or on the previous nights when I have had problems with the bedtime too.  My thinking is, I just feel that she knows how to go to sleep on her own, as long as I provide the right circumstance and not let her get OT or UT then she can fall asleep.  If she doesn't settle after 10 mins (with is not usual) then I will APOP her back to sleep.  I just don't want to cause her added stress when maybe the routine just needs tweeking or she is teething and needs some comfort.  Do you think this is causing problems though?

So as I'm typing this she just did an early night wake up after 35 mins.  I was able to sooth her with my voice and a hand on her back.  I then left her as she was self soothing back to sleep.

Altogether then she has only had 1hr 50 mins of sleep today, that's qutie low isn't it?

I'm just feeling quite despondent right now.  At least she is going down for her naps fine but I would really like to be able to get her down at bedtime too as well as not have these early night wakes!! Ugh!!

[Ima shel Alon]

Altogether then she has only had 1hr 50 mins of sleep today, that's qutie low isn't it?

Yes, I agree. I think she was OT from not having a good nap in the morning and maybe then A time before BT was a bit too long still. The 35min waking after BT sounds OT to me.
However, I wouldn't change anything yet.
The morning A time gave you a 35min WU into the nap which would be OT but she continues to sleep for another cycle, which is great and probably an indication of her getting used to her new A time, so I would keep it the same for the next couple of days.
And with BT I would reduce more than 20min yet because she might get a good morning nap.

Do you think this is causing problems though?

I don't think it's causing your problems but it does play into it. If she knew how settle herself back to sleep then she'd wake up after 35-45min into BT and will settle herself independently, but instead she knows that mommy will come and help her. I am not saying this is bad in any way, I was the queen of AP, lol. But I do think that one needs to be aware that it could attribute to things.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks for your input!

Going to stick with the full A time this morning then! She slept well during the night! Woke for some milk at 4 ish and then settled herself back to sleep without a problem! She then woke at 7:15 am. I did hear her resettling herself during that time a few times but I didn't feel I had to intervene!

Just want to check! Are you saying to reduce the A time before bed to more than 20 mins or not?

x

[Ima shel Alon]

She slept well during the night! Woke for some milk at 4 ish and then settled herself back to sleep without a problem! She then woke at 7:15 am. I did hear her resettling herself during that time a few times but I didn't feel I had to intervene!

This is great! I always think we don't stop and count our blessings enough

I meant not to reduce more than 20min yet, because we want to see the end of the day when on a day she had a good morning nap and she is not OT and that will take a few more days, perhaps.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you!

Just to update you.  Her activity time this morning was 3 hrs 45 mins.  I usually put her in the cot at this time and it takes her perhaps 5 mins to fall asleep but today she was out like a light! No issues!

I then heard her do about 4 cries at around the 40 min mark.  She went back to sleep on her own thought.  I think it may have taken her about 5 mins, but not sure.  I didn't dare go into her room to look in case I disturbed her.  Then she actually slept until the 2 hr mark when I woke her.  Thinking about it now, perhaps I should have woken her up at the 1hr 30 min mark so she doesn't get too much day sleep.  Any like you say, count the blessings and yippee for the good restorative nap and the fact that she went down so peacefully!!

Of course I'm going to aim for the 3hr 40 min A time.  We are in all day today so I will get her down in her cot.  We'll see if she goes down ok but I think I will only let her sleep for 40 mins like yesterday and then do the 20 min less at bedtime.  If you get this post before then and have another suggestion then let me know.

Also tomorrow if she has a long morning sleep again, should I cap it at the 1 hr 30 min mark as we were wondering if she was getting too much day sleep weren't we?

[Hayleys]

Hi

Just going to update this afternoon's nap while I have a minute.  I put her down after a full A time.  She was a bit grizzly and rubbing her eyes as I was singing her sleep song.  She then didn't go down that well.  She was crying and it took me about 5 mins to soothe her in the cot and she then mantra cried and went to sleep.  It wasn't too bad, nothing like how bedtime has been recently!  Her cries were getting less and less strong so I know she was going to go to sleep before long.

Anyway she woke at the 35 minute mark.  She was crying quite a lot.  I got her up as I was only going to let her sleep for 40 mins anyway.  I think she actually wanted to go back to sleep though and cried a little as we were walking down the stairs!  Do you think she could have been overtired? Or does she just need to get used a new routine?  I'm still going to give her 20 mins less A time and then put her to bed!

[Hayleys]

Hi!

So unfortunately bedtime did not go well. She seemed very tired during her A time before bed and was quite grizzly! I put her down after 20 mins of less A time and she started flinging herself around the cot and crying after a few mins!

Again I got her to sleep in the pushchair and then transferred her into the cot. That took half an hour though and she fell asleep at 9:00 pm. Every time this week when I have got her to sleep in the pushchair it has taken between 30 - 60 mins. I'm not happy doing that at all really! Feels like a big step back, especially when she can go to sleep on her own for naps!! I'm just thinking that I want to make sure she is on a good routine first and then if she still doesn't go down begin PU/PD. Oh dear, feel in a bit of a mess!!

[Hayleys]

PS Just re-read my first post of the day. Meant to say that her morning A time was 3hrs 35 mins not 3hrs 45 mins!! Ooops!!

[Ima shel Alon]

I had a glance but I am just out the door, will be back this evening!

[Ima shel Alon]

Any like you say, count the blessings and yippee for the good restorative nap and the fact that she went down so peacefully!!

Exactly! That's a great nap and I think you did the right thing letting her sleep 2h (we can always cap that one as well if needed) and I think it's even more awesome that she woke up and managed to put herself back to sleep!

Anyway she woke at the 35 minute mark.  She was crying quite a lot.  I got her up as I was only going to let her sleep for 40 mins anyway.  I think she actually wanted to go back to sleep though and cried a little as we were walking down the stairs!  Do you think she could have been overtired?

Yes, it was probably too much A time for her. Remind me for a second - the 3:40h A time is increased from 3.5h A time? If yes, then I would keep the 3:40h A time for 2 more days and then we can see how it's going. If the jump was more than these 10min then I'd go back a bit because maybe it's too much for her. And the OT nap is what brought her OT to her BT, I hope she slpet well at night. Maybe then the less 20min doesn't work well, maybe till the PM nap is sorted you need to shorten the last A even more, maybe try 30min less?

I'm just thinking that I want to make sure she is on a good routine first and then if she still doesn't go down begin PU/PD.

I can see the sense in that, don't feel guilty about this! You are doing a great job!
This is a process, it is going to take us time to figure her routine out and you WILL have short naps on the way and will start and doubt yourself - DON'T! It just takes time, it takes everybody time.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you very much for your response and also your reassurance!!  It so good to know that I have you supporting me with this!  I really appreciate it!!!!

Unfortunately we did not have a very good night last night.  She fell asleep in the pushchair at 9:00 pm.  I then transferred her into her cot at 9:10 pm and she stirred a little, just mentioning that as she then woke at 9:45 pm, so not sure if that would be considered as a 35 min wake or a 45 min one.

Anyway, when I went in her eyes were open and she was crying.  It was very hard to settle her! Usually she will fairly easily settle at this point but her eyes would be closed, instead but she was very distressed.  I decided to give her some meds in case that tooth was troubling her but that may not have been the reason.  She had had 2hr 35 mins of sleep throughout the day so perhaps this was too much or maybe it was due to OT.  Of course giving her meds woke her even more and she then didn't go to sleep until 11:15 pm.  Again I rocked her in the pushchair.  She woke at 5:30 am for a bottle, but then went straight back to sleep in her cot on her own and woke at 7:45 pm.

So with regard to the A time.  About a month ago she was only having 3 hrs A time.  I was having problems putting her down for naps so I posted on the Sleep board and it was suggested that I extend the A time.  I did this over a period of time.  It was at 3hr 25 mins and then she got a bad cold and EASY went out of the window for about 10 days.  When we went back to it she seemed to ease into it fine but one day I got a 35 min nap.  I thought it meant undertired so I extended again.  Looking at your responses though you have seemed to suggest that it may be OT so maybe this A time could well be too much for her.  You did mention that it was slightly on the high side.  Umm.. sometimes I think she may struggle a bit with this time, especially for the 2nd nap.  Do you think I should reduce it or just hold it for a while?

OK so this is what happend today.  She went down fairly well for her first nap, a little grizzly though.  It was 3hr 35 mins in the end as she was grizzling during the winddown time.  Obviously she didn't sleep well in the night, so I think she was OT.  If she does have a bad night like that, should I decrease the A time in the morning or just leave it as it is, I wasn't sure what to do?  So she slept solidly for 1 hr 10 mins but woke very happily. 

In the afternoon, I kept her A time to 3hr 40.  I usually put her down a 3hr 35 min and she then settles on her own for the last few mins.  She was not happy when I put her down and was crying a lot.  I took her out of the room and sang her song again for a few more mins.  I could then put her in the cot and walk out of the room.  She cried (not mantra) but immediately stopped rolled onto her side and went to sleep.  Could she have been OT again?  Should I have reduced her A time as she had only slept for 1 hr 10 mins, if so by how much?  So this nap she slept solidly throughout.  I actually had to wake her though as it was 5:15 pm in the eve.  I chose this time as 50 mins had passed.  A few days ago we were wondering if she was perhaps getting too much day sleep when she slept of 2hrs 35 mins one day and this may contribute to her early night wakes.  I thought that by waking her at this time it would then mean she had a combination of 2hr of day sleep and perhaps see if that made a difference or not.  When I woke her she could easily have carried on sleeping as she was in a deep sleep but she didn't cry like yesterday and soon was happily playing.  The early part of the evening was fine too, she was quite content really.

So I put her to bed as you suggested 30 mins less then her usual A time.  Her total day time was 12 hr and 35 mins.  I did actually let her fall asleep on the bottle as I thought that it was better for now to do this, then push her in her pushchair, which always takes 30 mins or so and makes her more OT.  Once we are on track with the naps then I'll think about getting her down without it so I know exactly what her A time before bed should be.   I also gave her meds before bed too just in case her mouth is hurting.  I think a small piece of tooth may be coming up now but it's hard to look as she won't let me for long!!

Anyway, she has been asleep for 1 and a half hours now and guess what, no early night wakes so far!!!  So I'm wondering if only letting her sleep for 2 hr during the day has helped with this or maybe the 30 min less of bedtime is right for her not to be OT.  For her not to do this is extremely rare.  Umm...  Any ideas?

Also I'm thinking that if tomorrow she does actually do a 1hr 30 min nap then for her pm sleep I may just let her sleep for 30 min sho she still only gets 2hr sleep in the day.  If you think this amount of day sleep has helped with her not waking in the early part of the evening, then do you think this is a good idea.   Or is a 30 min sleep a little on the low side?

[Ima shel Alon]

Also I'm thinking that if tomorrow she does actually do a 1hr 30 min nap then for her pm sleep I may just let her sleep for 30 min sho she still only gets 2hr sleep in the day.  If you think this amount of day sleep has helped with her not waking in the early part of the evening, then do you think this is a good idea.   Or is a 30 min sleep a little on the low side?

I don't think it needs to be so rigid. I would do a full nap in the morning and cap the PM one after 45min, not 30min. This and 30min less before BT is what I'd continue with.

So I'm wondering if only letting her sleep for 2 hr during the day has helped with this or maybe the 30 min less of bedtime is right for her not to be OT. 

It can be either or it can be both. Does it really matter, though?

She had had 2hr 35 mins of sleep throughout the day so perhaps this was too much or maybe it was due to OT. 

Again, it can be either or, it's very hard to know. I tend to think OT, though, because waking took place in the first part of the night and continues to be difficult but second part of the night was really good.

Umm.. sometimes I think she may struggle a bit with this time, especially for the 2nd nap.  Do you think I should reduce it or just hold it for a while?

I am not sure I agree about the first nap. Because you wrote this:

It was 3hr 35 mins in the end as she was grizzling during the winddown time.

You gave her 5min less of A time in the morning, despite a bad night and she gave you an UT nap! In that case I would say you should be rigid and give 3:40 . And it also sounds like the second A time was right because you got a good nap, right?  And she was happy after it before BT so obviously she was ok with a CN in the PM and not a full nap.

I don't know if you can feel it already but I see a huge progress since you started the thread.

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thank you, yes I do think there has been progress too!!

Last night she slept well.  There were a few times when I heard her put herself back to sleep with one cry each time.  Is this restlessness usual do you think, could I be doing anything else which would help her to have more deeper sleep during the night?  By the way, I must say that the most of this occurred a few hours before she cried for a bottle so it may have been that she was stirring with hunger.  When I did feed her she then drained the bottle and went straight back to sleep and did seem to be more settled.  Although the hour and a half before she woke she was again a little restless and putting herself back to sleep.  Just thought I'd mention it as it always disturbs my sleep, so if it could be avoided then that would be great!

OK so today has also gone well.  She actually woke a little later than usual at 8:am.  We went out for the day and I took the travel cot with me so she could have a nap in that while we were staying at someone's house.  I put her down after 3hrs 40 mins of A time.  She did actually take another 5 mins to fall asleep, but she did so without a problem.  She was not overly familiar with the environment or the cot really, so she did fantastically well.  Perhaps this contributed to her not falling asleep straight away or maybe she wasn't quite tired enough? So she only slept for 1hr 10 mins but when I  went into her she had pooed, so it may have been why she woke early.  Anyway she was very happy and was refreshed by until her next nap.

I left when it was 3hr 40 mins after her A time so she could fall asleep in the car.  She did but again it took her 5 mins and then she only slept for 35 mins!  She did seem quite happy between then and her bedtime, perhaps a little bit hyper just before she went to sleep though.  She fell asleep on the bottle again, 30 mins less then her full A time.  Just one thing though, last night and tonight when I tried to feed her in her bedroom, she started to cry and refused the bottle.  She would only take it when she was downstairs. Any idea as to why this has started to occur?  It's worrying me a little, wondering if she is resisting wanting to go to bed.  She then went to bed after having a 12 and a half an hour day!

So tonight she has been asleep for 2 hours so far.  I heard her stir after 55 mins, do one cry and put herself back to sleep and then the same 10 mins later!  So has been a little bit restless but this is fantastic!!! I really hope it continues!!


 

[Ima shel Alon]

Just thought I'd mention it as it always disturbs my sleep, so if it could be avoided then that would be great!

It sounds ok to me. I mean, the fact that she puts herself back to sleep is just awesome! Do you have a monitor? I found that the monitor just kept me more awake, I was expecting him to wake at certain times and I could hear every sound through it, so I ditched it.
Even we as adults are making sounds in our sleep that are just a part of our sleep, some of us are more "talkative" and some less.

Re today it sounds like because she didn't have a full nap on the AM then the 3:40h A time was a bit too much for (or the fact that she was in the car or OS from the outing ). I wouldn't worry about it too much because all in all it looks like you had a good night and a good day, AND she didn't wake up 45min into BT. Hooray!
I don't know why she wouldn't feed in her bedroom, but I wouldn't be so worried about it. Is daddy around in downstairs? Maybe she wants to see him or maybe downstairs is a bit more interesting than her room? IIWY I would just let it be for a few days and then try again to feed in her room.