Some EASY questions

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks for your response!

So after my last post she actually slept in total for 11 hrs 45 mins during the night.  This is longer than she would usually.  I've never really kept a consistent record of it but I think it would be anywhere between 10-11 hrs.

This morning she had 3 hr 40 mins of A time and actually started to fall asleep on me as I brought her up the stairs.  She then cried out after 35 mins but put herself back to sleep and I actually had to wake her after 1 hrs 35 mins of sleep as we needed to go out.  I've noticed that if she does cry out at this time then often she will then do a long sleep.

So she was very refreshed and happy in the afternoon.  I then tried to put her down again after 3 hr 40 mins.  However, she took 15 mins to fall asleep.  To be honest, looking back, when I was doing wind down time she didn't seem really tired, certainly not like in the morning.  She was in a deep sleep though and I actually woke her after 45 mins.

Then I tried to get her to sleep on the bottle 30 mins less than her usual A time.  However, she did not fall asleep on it.  She looked drowsy on it but instead when she finished she sat upright.  So I then tried to settle her in the cot.  She was babbling for about 5-10 mins and then started crying.  I perservered for a little longer but didn't feel comfortable so I did actually pushed her to sleep in the pushchair.  This took another 30 mins for her to sleep so it was way passed her full A time. Thought I'd write my EASY like this as it may be better to look at:

W 8:15 am
E  8:30
A  (3hrs 40  mins)
S  11:55 - 1:30 pm (1hr 35 min, I woke her up)
E  1:40 pm
A  (3hr 55 mins as it took her 15 mins to fall asleep in her cot)
S  5:30 - 6:15 (woke her after 45 mins)
E  6:20 pm
A  (3 hr 10 mins, tried to get her to sleep on the bottle but she didn't and her A time was then 4 hrs)
S 10: 20 pm  (fell asleep in the pushchair and transferred to the cot)

Ok, so thinking about it she had had a very long night sleep the night before of 11 hr 45 mins.   Her day sleep was then 2hrs 15 mins.  On the last two days when she has fallen asleep on the bottle she has only had 1hr 50 min of day sleep and 2 hrs of day sleep.  I'm just wondering if she had too much sleep.  She was very happy all day too and didn't seem tired, except in the morning.  If you think that this is the case.  Should I leave her to sleep for 1 hr 30 min in the morning and cap the afternoon nap shorter? Umm  Or even cap the AM nap?

After she fell asleep, she slept soundly and I did not her anything from her until around 7 this morning but she went back to sleep and woke at 7:55 am.  She didn't even wake for a bottle in the night!!  She has only had 8 hrs 35 mins last night though so really under on the night sleep.

So that's where we are so far.  Going to stick to the 3 hr 40 min A time.  This does work well for the morning nap but actually looking back she does tend to take longer to fall asleep for the afternoon one.  Umm

Any ideas? x

[Hayleys]

Ooops meant to write that her night sleep was 9 hrs 25 mins (miscalulated)!

I was just having a chat with my husband and we were saying how nice it would be to be able to get her down for bed at the same time each night.  Is there a way to do this?

[Ima shel Alon]

Should I leave her to sleep for 1 hr 30 min in the morning and cap the afternoon nap shorter? Umm  Or even cap the AM nap?

I wouldn't do that really. I mean, she is still young, yk? She needs one restorative nap. Day sleep is as important as night sleep.
Do you remember you mentioned before that you want to get her on a good routine and then you'll deal with the pushchair? Because you wanted to know it's now her routine keeping her awake at BT? So I think this time has come. Her routine is really really good, you can't ask for more than that, but she needs to learn to fall asleep even when you are not there. IIWY I wouldn't stay in the room at all after putting down and just come back if she starts crying. Many times the fact that we stay in the room to see them through falling asleep is keeping them awake and stimulated. I would think that PU/PD is the way to go on or just PD if she pulls herself already in bed.
What do you think?

[Ima shel Alon]

Just saw your second message. Of course there is a way to do that, that's actually very important and what most parents do.
Our WU was much earlier than yours, it was 6AM but it was ok for us most of the time and I knew DS couldn't do more than 11h at night so BT was at 19 - no matter what! That meant that the last A time was not a full A time. It is possible to set her body clock to know that a certain time is the time she goes down for the night, but it can also take a while to establish. If, like I suggested in my previous post, you are going to go with PU/PD, then this could help with establishing a set BT. But it also needs to be realistic, if you put her down at 19, don't expect her to sleep till 9, yk?

[Hayleys]

Hi

Thanks for all of your thoughts!!  Very much appreciated!

Ok, so yesterday evening we had a early night wake after she had been down for 45 mins.  I'm hoping that this may be because we veered off EASY in the afternoon.  Basically she had an hour's less sleep for her afternoon A time as we had a family birthday to be at and she feel asleep in the car on the way home.  This also meant that she had a 12 hr day instead of a 13 hr one and I think the latter does seem to work better for her with the amount of day sleep she is currently having.  At least I'm hoping that is why we got that early night wake! 

We are back on track today though so hopefully with a 1hr 30 mins morning sleep and a 45 min catnap in the afternoon she won't wake in the early evening - fingers crossed as if this doesn't happen then I think it will speak volumes!!  I'm still sticking to 30 mins less A time before bedtime.  I am having to cap the morning nap as otherwise she would sleep for longer and also the PM nap too.  If the night wakes have gone do you think that this is enough sleep for her during the day?

Ok so regarding her routine, I completely understand that I need to be realistic.  She has never woken early and always wanted to go back to sleep if it is before 7 am.  Before we had a little relapse over the last few days, she was waking between 7 and 7:30 very happily.  I think it would be good if I aimed to try to get her body clock to wake at 7 am and went to bed at 8 pm.  The thing is I'm not sure about how to do this.  Her routine at the moment actually only works out to fit into a 12 hr 45 min day.  Of course that's fine for me to follow but is that what you mean?  If so, then how does that work when I then start to increase her A times?  Also do I need to think about waking her at 7 am to get her body clock adjusted to this? 

I am thinking about PU/PD.  The problem at the moment is that she seems to be teething.  Her tooth is starting to sprout now and it looks as it the one next to it is on the way.  Over the last two days I have had problems getting her down for her AM nap and today she has been very grizzly and clingy.  I did give her some meds before putting her down for her PM nap today and she did go down fine, but it is a bit hit and miss as to how much she takes as she can tend not to swallow it all!  I need to experiment with different ways to give it to her, at the moment we are using a syringe.  Tonight and perhaps over the next few nights, I am going to let her fall asleep at bedtime on her bottle.  I need to also read up on what is age appropriate for her now with PU/PD as when I did it with her before she was only 5 months so I know it is quite different now.  I'm also a bit nervous about doing it!! Really not looking forward to it!  I'm hoping though that as she can fall asleep on her own then it may not take too long!

[Ima shel Alon]

I am having to cap the morning nap as otherwise she would sleep for longer and also the PM nap too.  If the night wakes have gone do you think that this is enough sleep for her during the day?

When do you cap the AM nap? I hope you let her sleep for at least 1.5h.
If NW have gone and she sleeps around 2-2.5h day sleep, it looks good to me.

Her routine at the moment actually only works out to fit into a 12 hr 45 min day.  Of course that's fine for me to follow but is that what you mean?  If so, then how does that work when I then start to increase her A times?  Also do I need to think about waking her at 7 am to get her body clock adjusted to this? 

I am afraid I don't see the problem :S I mean, you say that she sleeps 11 hours at night, so if you'll put her to bed at 20 she'll probably wake up at 7, in theory anyway. These 15min is really not an issue, you can either let her sleep a bit later in the morning if she wants to or you can have 15min less before BT (maybe after those past few days that she got used to 30min less before BT she'll do fine with 15min less as well). It's just some trial and error. I would try and set 20 as BT and see if she would sleep till after 7 in the morning. Of course, if you want to keep her sleeping 11 hours at night then I wouldn't let her sleep too late in the morning.
You won't have a problem when increasing A times. You are anyway on the verge of the 2-1 transition when often you need to do EBT to avoid OT and at the same time you are capping the second (or first) nap even more than 45min. But you are not there yet. As well, many babies respond well when their last A time is shortened and they don't need a full A (even if they DID need it before).

I hope teething eases a bit soon, and of course you shouldn't do PU/PD before she is well again. There is some info here about your question: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations) and I wouldn't worry so much about it. I found PU/PD was so much easier when DS was older. I actually couldn't handle doing it when he was younger because of the distress but when it was just PD it was pretty easy. Remind me, is she an ind. sleeper for naps and BT? I thought the issue was only with this waking 45min into BT.

[Hayleys]

Hi

She is an independent sleeper for her naps and used to be at bedtime too. Then for a few months i let her fall asleep on the bottle (as her routine was all over the place). When I have tried on occasions over the last few weeks to get her to sleep independently at bedtime, it has been a struggle!

So up until now with EASY I have always let her sleep in the mornings until she wakes, put her down for naps using the average A times and then put her to bed whenever she seems tired! Basically she has never had the same bedtime or wake up time, but now I would like to try to establish this! I am struggling a little to understand how to do this though! You seem to be saying to put her down for bed at the same time but then what about if the EASY runs off course for the day?  For instance, I am aiming for a 8 pm bedtime. Today she woke at 6:30 am. This is very unusual!! I followed my EASY as always but she only had 2 short naps of 45 mins! I'm not sure if this was due to teething but it would still be good to know what would have been the best thing to do. I was lost as by 3:30 pm she had woken from her second nap. That meant she still had 4.5 hrs til bedtime! I knew she would struggle with this and in the end I got her to sleep at 7:30 pm on the bottle. This is way too long for her I know, I just didn't know what else to do though?

So in an ideal world she should wake at 7 am. Do her one restorative nap and catnap and then go to bed for 8pm. What happens though if she wakes before 6 am or doesn't take a long nap? Hope I'm explaining myself enough!

When things have been going to planned in the morning and she has been having a long nap, I have been waking her after 1 hr 30 mins.  Then in the afternoon I also wake her after 45 mins if she has not woken before then. Do you think waking her is the right thing to do at these times? The only thing, yesterday after doing this she had an early night wake after 35-45 mins!! I was perplexed by this! The only thing other thing it may be is teething! I did managed to give her all of her meds before bed though! Teething may also have played a part in her short naps today too but not sure!

Any thoughts really appreciated!!

[Ima shel Alon]

When I have tried on occasions over the last few weeks to get her to sleep independently at bedtime, it has been a struggle!

Don't worry about that too much, the BT bottle is the only one that one shouldn't worry about, IMO.

Today she woke at 6:30 am. This is very unusual!! I followed my EASY as always but she only had 2 short naps of 45 mins! I'm not sure if this was due to teething but it would still be good to know what would have been the best thing to do. I was lost as by 3:30 pm she had woken from her second nap. That meant she still had 4.5 hrs til bedtime! I knew she would struggle with this and in the end I got her to sleep at 7:30 pm on the bottle. This is way too long for her I know, I just didn't know what else to do though?

Obviously it's better to start setting BT when you have an easier day, but the thing is that you *will* sometimes have harder days even at times when her routine is pretty much sorted - like now, actually. But if you have one OT day it doesn't mean it's going to affect your whole routine every day. I always tried to get to our set BT in different ways. There were days that we had long A before BT because I could see he could handle it (maybe we had some NW, but it was fine), sometimes I had to do a really short CN in the late afternoon to get us to BT, and yes, sometimes you just have to put earlier to bed, like you did today. Different things work for different babies. BT and WU will not set themselves by themselves, you would need to do it.

 

Do you think waking her is the right thing to do at these times?

I think we established that already, no?
If you think she is teething now then we can't conclude anything about her routine yet and I wouldn't tweak anything for now.

[Hayleys]

Hi!

Thanks I understand about sticking to the bedtime no matter what now! I'll try it tonight as she woke at 7:05 this morning so hopefully an 8:00 pm bedtime will work well!

Ok, so yesterday she had a hospital appointment. It was first thing in the morning and it timed not too badly with her first nap (although a little longer), 3hrs 50 mins. However she only did a 40 min nap again!! This keeps happening! 

Today though she went down really well for her first nap and slept solidly for an hour and a half! However just now I tried to put her down for her PM nap and she screamed so much! I just don't understand it! I'm not entirely sure it is her teeth as she had been in a great mood all day. I did start her wind down  10 mins before putting her down and she has never liked a long wind down time.  I'm just baffled! Is it possible that she may need an increase in her A time! Although she did a long sleep this morning, over the last few days she hasn't and she didn't actually seem very tired when I tried to put her down!

We have also still been getting early night wakes but as her routine has been all over the place for a few days then that's understandable. Still though she did wake after a 1 hr 30 min am nap and a 45 min pm nap! I did wake her at the 1 hr 30 min mark for her first nap! I though we were thinking that she may be getting too much day sleep do that why I did it - misunderstood! Should I not do that then? What about the Pm nap?

x

[Hayleys]

Just to clarify as it may not have been clear .. I was just saying that the other day she did a 1 hr 30 min nap (which I woke her for). Then a 45 min one, and she still had early night wakes! Do you think this may have been because I woke her?

Also this morning she woke on her own after 1hr 30 mins!

[Ima shel Alon]

No, I don't think the EW is because you woke her up from the nap, I think she is napping very well right now on days that she has one full nap and one CN. EW can be caused by different things, but until she will be established on her routine then we can only guess.
By the way, on days that you are out and about you can't conclude anything re A times, because babies sleep very different when they are outside. Some sleep much better than their usual and some sleep worse.
WRT the second nap I would wait one more day at home and see what PM nap are you getting. What is the first and second A time right now? When she does go down eventually to her PM nap how long is she sleeping for?

[Hayleys]

Thanks!

Her first A time is 3hr 40 mins and this is the same for her secondReference number!

I was just wondering about her second A time as now she mainly seems to be having a restorative nap in the morning. At the beginning of the post, when I was cutting back on her morning A time, she used to wake at 1hr 10-20 min and then afterwards have 3hrs 40 mins A time.  Generally she was fine with this.

A few days ago I did have to wake her from her PM nap at 45 mins after a restorative nap and 3 hrs 40 of A time. However since things have gone a bit wonky she has been waking herself after 40 mins and crying!!

[Ima shel Alon]

40min and crying can actually be OT, so I am wondering if she actually goes down OT for the second nap. What do you think?

[Hayleys]

Yes, it could be possible. We were out again today so she had her PM nap in the car! Over the weekend we are at home so I'll see what happens. Is it possible that she may need less A time in the afternoon than the morning?

Also I just want to check, I am aiming for an 8pm bedtime and 7 am wake up. I'm starting today with the 8 pm bedtime and will continue to consistent with this. Should I wake her at 7 am or is it ok to let her sleep until she wakes, say no later than 7:30. I just want to make sure she has enough sleep and that her first A time is not too much for her. Also if she did have a disrupted night then should I let her sleep in? 

[Ima shel Alon]

I think it's fine to let her sleep till 7:30ish. I never let Alon sleep longer in the morning if he had a bad night because it threw our EASY totally off. But, when we had a good routine and he was pretty much settled into it then I did. It doesn't mean it's going to work for your LO, perhaps she is more sensitive and won't handle the OT well, yk? But I;d rather try and wake then let her sleep to long. If you see she is getting OT because you woke her up in the morning then the next time it happens you can just let her sleep longer.

It could be that the second A time is too much for her, yes. Many babies can handle a longer A time in the morning after a good night sleep, but some are the opposite, it's just something to watch.