5mo with new NW - any ideas?

[NewMum79]

Hi,

For the last few nights my 5MO DD has started to wake at EXACTLY 4 hours from the I put her down from her dreamfeed, i.e. between 2.20am and 2.40am. Prior to that she was sleeping until around 4am when I did a small night feed to get her through to morning. She is EBF apart from the dreamfeed for which she has a bottle of formula. She takes 7-8oz at the dreamfeed so I am pretty sure the new NW is something other than hunger.

She is capable of putting herself to sleep and always has done after the dreamfeed and 4am feed (I have never fed to sleep). When she wakes around 2.30am she isn't crying as such more moaning and mantra crying. The first couple of nights I went in and moved from her back on to her side and she went back off until 4am. Last night I tried leaving her and she settled herself back for 30 minutes or so before waking again so then I went in and moved her onto her side but she then woke again another 30 minutes later so I ended up going in and feeding her as by the it was nearly 4am. She fed but not overly hungry, not upset but really quite awake. I put her back down awake but she couldn't settle and she cried out again so I ended up going in and putting her on her side again. This time she went off until 7.30am, by then she (and I) had been awake on and off for 2 hours so she was probably shattered.

We haven't changed our routine and she is still sleeping great from 7pm until the 2.30am NW so I'm all out of ideas. Please help?

Thanks

UPDATE: Last night was similar bit slightly different, it wasn't exactly 4 hours last night. I put her down awake after her df at 10.40pm and she woke at 2am. The grumbling quickly escalated to crying and when DH went in it escalated to full on crying/ screaming and then I had to go in to calm her down (shush pat). She then went back down until 4am when I offered her a feed but she only fed for 5 mins before starting to fall asleep so I stirred her and put her back in her cot. I had to go in 5 mins later to resettle her but she then slept until 7am. So I am even more convinced it is not hunger. Very confused and very tired!

[Erin M]

First off, I will say that my ds had a monster growth spurt at 5 months, the biggest of his life really, so hunger is always a possibility.
That being said, what does your routine look like right now?  It could be that it is in need of some tweaking.  Can you write your EASY in
E
A
S
format?
Thanks!

[NewMum79]

Hi Erin,

Thanks for replying. I MIGHT have found the answer as 2 things happened last night and as a result we only had 1 NW which was the normal 3.30/4am feed. The 2 things were:

1) I realised that DD had woken up damp on her back every morning this week as I don't normally change her between BT and morning. And a damp back would seem to fit with only settling when I moved her onto her side. So I changed her nappy when she woke for her df.
2) DD is EBF apart from the df which is a bottle of formula. She has recently been taking 7-8 oz at this feed. Last night DH gave her the bottle and 'something happened' apparently the bottle slipped and she started crying and refused the bottle after 2oz. I had to go in and BF as she was still hungry.

So I don't know if it was the nappy or if she was potentially over feeding with the bottle at the df but last night was so much better. She settled herself quickly after the night feed until 7am 

We had a huge growth spurt over Christmas where she has shot up from the 50th centile to nearly the 75th so I think we might have had our huge growth spurt for now - I hope so!

Our EASY tends to depend on how the previous night has gone. I am trying for an A time of 2 hours at the moment, having recently pushed it up from 1hr45. I always stick to the E times.

If DD has had a good night I rarely manage to get her to take more than 30/45 minutes for the first nap which then knocks on to the rest of the day like this:

Wake up around 7am
E 7.30am - always a short feed, never very hungry
A
S 9- 9.30/9.45 (always in cot )
A
E 11
A
S 11.30/11.45 - 13.30/13.45 (always in cot, occasionally I let her sleep on until 14.00 if she seemed really tired before her nap)
A
E 14.15/14.30
A
S 15.45/16.00 - 16.15/16.30 ( if she has slept less at lunchtime this might be a 1 hour sleep in which case I push BT back a little and this is usually in the buggy)
E 17.45/18.00 - I do half a feed before bath and half after
A - low key play on our bed, bath
E 18.30
S 18.45/19.00 - starting to settle herself to sleep, I rarely shush pat now
E 22.00/22.30 - she usually sleeps great all evening and then naturally wakes for this feed, settles herself back to sleep
S
E 3.30/4am - small feed and then settles herself back to sleep

The above has been the case for about 3 weeks now and I have stuck to it as it was giving us good nights until this last week and I really don't want her to be UT in the night. I am thinking of trying to get her on to more of a 4hr EASY with 2 longer naps and a catnap as she can be a bit cranky after the short morning sleep...

Any input appreciated

Thanks!

[Erin M]

Hope you're on to something with the diaper change!
I think you need to stretch your first A time to get a longer first nap.  If you can get longer naps you're probably headed towards dropping the cat nap.  There's a sticky on that on the naps FAQ board -- can't link right now but let me know if you can't find it and I'll link when I can -- I'd have a read of that as I'm pretty sure you're headed in that direction.

[NewMum79]

Pushing the A time seems to be working well on the naps - yesterday i pushed the A time to 2 hours when i put DD in her cot so it was probably 2hr10 or so when she went to sleep and as a result she managed a 1.25hr morning and lunchtime nap and then a 30 minute catnap in the buggy. Her mood was much better as well so thanks for that suggestion.

Unfortunately the 2.30am NW came back last night despite the nappy change  So maybe that wasn't the answer... I think the timing must be related to a sleep cycle so there is something when she comes out of that sleep cycle that prevents her from settling herself back to sleep  I went in and moved her onto her side and she settled back down easily until 5am when I offered her a feed. She had a half feed (i.e. one side) and settled herself back to sleep until 7.15am.

Again, any ideas appreciated.

[Erin M]

Can't remember if we talked about this, but have you totally ruled out hunger at 2:30?  Looking at your EASY, it seems like it's been 4 hours since her last feed so it would be within reason for her to be feeding again.  What's her behavior like when she wakes?

Also, here's the sticky I mentioned in the last post: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months -- you could be in the beginning stages of this, you do need to continue to stretch your A times in order to get there though. 

Did she take her bottle as usual the other night as well?  Wondering if the waking has something to do with that???

[NewMum79]

Hi Erin,

You did mention hunger but I am convinced it isn't the cause of the NW because she resettles really easy and for another hour and a half or 2 hours. When she wakes she starts with a grumble and a whine, then it moves on to a mantra cry and almost a proper cry (which is when one of us goes in). As soon as we go in and move her onto her side and do a little shush pat she resettles. I would have thought that if it was hunger she would protest more and not resettle for so long?

I am really reluctant to introduce a 2.30am feed as we had got down to 1 night feed for so long and I am worried that if I try feeding at 2.30am then she will expect it every night!

She took her bottle fine the last 2 nights (about 5/6 oz each night) and a small BF (I think this is a comfort thing but I am fine with it as I don't feed to sleep).

I had a look at the 3-2 transition, DD is just 5 mo this week so I don't think we are quite there yet it I can definitely see that her A times are increasing so I'm sure it won't be long. In fact I think I need to push the A time some more as yesterday I got 2 x 1hr15 naps and this morning only a 1hr nap so I am guessing this may indicate UT?

Thanks

[Erin M]

In fact I think I need to push the A time some more as yesterday I got 2 x 1hr15 naps and this morning only a 1hr nap so I am guessing this may indicate UT?

I would agree with this.  I've found with mine that we go through stages where it seemed like we'd be on the same A time for quite awhile and then we'd have some pretty rapid increases.  You're probably headed in the general direction of the 3-2, though not quite there yet. 

I don't think it sounds like hunger either if she's settling for so long after the waking, more likely some fine tuning of routine.

[NewMum79]

I agree, it is probably fine tuning of routine. In the mean time my body seems to be readjusting to 2 NW, it's amazing how our bodies cope with all that motherhood throws at us!

I am struggling to find the right A time as yesterday with a 2hr10 A time I got a 1hr nap in the morning followed by a 2 hr nap after lunch (although DD stirred and needed help to transition at 45 mins - I can't remember if 45mins is UT, OT or OS?). Today looks to be following the same pattern... DD is also fighting going down a little more (although can't complain she still goes down in about 5 mins). I am wondering if it would be better to put her in her cot a little earlier (maybe 2hr) and let her wriggle and play with her comfort blanket for 5/10 minutes  Perhaps this is more for the naps board than NW...

[Erin M]

It's all connected, makes it hard to figure out what the key to working it all out is. 

I would say that you need more A time for your first if you only got an hour nap -- the fact that you got a decent nap off of a short nap and a normal A time probably says that she needs more, if you see what I mean.  45 minute naps are generally UT naps -- though I will say with mine it always had more to do with how they woke than when they woke -- if I had happy, chatty, impossible to resettle wakings, they generally meant UT, OT wakings were more fussy.  It she needed help to transition at the 45 minute mark but went back down, I would wonder if she was a little OT from the long A time after the short nap.

At any rate, I'd say you should stretch that first A time a bit.