Night wakings

[LivBo]

Hi
I am trying to eliminate my daughters night wakings. She is between 3 and 4 months old and wakes 2-3 times a night.

I have her on a structured routine during the day. She has just started moving towards 4 hourly feeds and is on 3 and a half at the moment. She has 1 - 2 hour naps in the day, but I usually need to resettle her in the cot after 45 min. I have always been good at following EASY during the day, but due to various illnesses and health scares, ended up spending a lot of time with her in my bed during the early months, although I am now able to feed her and put her back into her own bed during the night.

The nights generally go as follows.
6:30 feed
7pm sleep (using pu/pd and shh pat in the cot)
10pm dream feed
wakes up somewhere between 12 and 1 where I resettle her with dummy.
around 3:30 feed (she takes a full feed normally)
there may then be another wake up before the morning which is at 7am.

Should I just use pu/pd for all night wakings and not feed her? Or should I use pu/pd for all wakings other than 3am and feed her then? Or should I feed her at the first wake up, then try and move that back to consolidate with the night feed?

It is all a bit confusing....

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Olivia

[anna*]

Honestly, I think she's really young to be trying to get rid of night feeds. It's very very normal to have one or even two night feeds in addition to the dreamfeed at this stage.

[Erin M]

Have you ever tried feeding at that first waking to see where it gets you?  ITA with anna*, night feeds are very normal for babies of your LO's age.  I'd also tend to use more pat/shush than PU/PD, as PU/PD tends to be very overstimulating for babies of that age.  I would try to calm her in her bed when you put her down for the night and see if you get some better sleep out of her. 

[LivBo]

Hi

Thanks for your responses. It is a relief to know that it is normal to have night wakings at this age.

I have tried feeding her at the first wake up, but she will still wake up a couple of hours later. She doesn't however always wake up between 12 and 1, she occasionally sleeps right through to 2 or 3.

I have been settling my LO in the cot for a while now, but I am unsure whether I am doing it right as it doesn't seem to be getting any easier.

- I begin by taking her up to the bedroom and having a little lie on the bed
- Then I put her in her sleeping  bag (it's a swaddle/bag which holds her arms in)
- She then starts to cry, even if I am sure that she is not overtired.
- I hold her in my arms until she calms down and stops crying or almost stops crying.
-I then put her in the cot on her side and pat her on the back, with one hand on her shoulder and with the white noise on.
- I keep patting unless she starts to cry, in which case I pick her up again,
- I continue to pat until she is asleep and then slowly take my hands off her.

I generally only have to pick her up 3ish times but she does cry for a few minutes each time. I do this for naps, bedtime and resettling at night and in the middle of her long naps as she always wakes at 45 minutes.

My question is, am I doing this right as it does not seem to be getting easier to settle her? Also, how should I expect things to progress from here? I can't imagine not having to sit patting her for between 5 and 20 minutes every time she needs to go to sleep.

Thanks again for all your advice and tips!

[Erin M]

It sounds like it might be a routine issue to me -- can you post your daytime routine like this:
E
A
S
..and so on?  I feel like she might be either overtired or Undertired when you're putting her down for the night.

[LivBo]

Hi there
Yes I think it might be a routine issue. Everything is actually up in the air at the moment and I REALLY need to sort it out.

I used to do the classic 3 hour EASY routine. It worked very well as I have to take my older daughter to nursery in the mornings, so the LO would drop off on the way there, stay asleep for a couple of hours and then the same when I went to pick her up. I have used shh/pat since about eight weeks. She is now 16 weeks and until the recent disruption, I could put her down and generally get her to sleep after a few minutes of patting.

The problems came more recently. The beginning of last week I noticed she was able to stay awake longer and go longer between her feeds, she was also generally only napping 45 minutes, so I started to move her towards a 3.5 hour routine. It looked something like this:
E 7am
A 7:15 - 8:45
S 8:45 (normally 45 mins but would try for a longer nap)
E 10:30
A 10:45
S 12:30 As above
E 2
A 2:15
S 4 (45)
E 5
A bath, changed etc
E 7
DF 10

This routine didn't actually get settled as it is so recent.

However now the problem is she isn't sleeping more than 45 minutes for naps, she can no longer take long naps in the pram, she is taking ALOT longer to settle with the shh/pat and up for over an hour at each waking at night (10 and 3) and she is ending the day completely overtired. 

I have to leave the house at 8:30 for nursery drop off for half an hour, then again at 11:30 for pick up. I need to work out how to ensure the LO gets good sleeps and doesn't get over tired. I also am not sure I am using shh/pat correctly as I am still having to pat her until she is fast asleep and she doesn't seem to be resettling herself at all. Should I be leaving her when she is just winging and only going and shh/patting when she is really crying?

Would you be able to make a suggestion of what I should do? I'm feeling exhausted and a little desperate. I feel so sad seeing the LO so distressed all the time :-(

Thanks you so much
LivBO

[Erin M]

Should I be leaving her when she is just winging and only going and shh/patting when she is really crying?

Yes, definitely.  She might surprise you by settling on her own when she's just whining.

I would try to push for a 2 hour A time -- it might be hard for her at first, but I think in the long run it's where you need to be headed, especially if you're continuing to get short naps on the 1.45 A time.  If you do an A time from 7-9, you should get back from your nursery run just in time to put her down for the first nap -- if she gives you a good nap there, then you'll be able to do your pick up  nursery run in the middle of her second A time.  Do you think you'll be able to keep her awake long enough to get her home again during that first nursery run -- I used to take my ds to pick up my oldest daughter from school every day and he'd always fall asleep as soon as I put him in the car.   

[LivBo]

Hi Erin
Thanks for your reply.

I tried leaving her while she was just whining yesterday and amazingly she fell asleep for two hours. I also heard her a couple of times in the night when she would normally need resettling, but she settled herself back down. I'm feeling really pleased with that progress.

I will try and keep her up for two hours each time. I think she will find it hard, will she adjust? It didn't work this morning as she was up early so I popped her in the pram to fall asleep before we went on the school run. Luckily she has slept through it.

Things are definitely looking a bit more positive today!

Thanks again
LivBo

[anna*]

She'll find the hike in A times hard to begin with but she will adjust. At the beginning, you can treat the additional A time like an extra long wind-down - so just spend 10-15 mins having a quiet walk around the house with her in your arms, or lying on the bed smiling at each other.

[Erin M]

Exactly what anna* said about the A time. 

Nice work on the progress, sometimes these LOs surprise us with what they do. 

[LivBo]

Hi
Thanks for your ideas and encouragement. Keeping her up 2 hours has really helped with day time naps. Although her first nap is still in her pram, she is having a really good 2 hour nap every morning which is helping her a lot.
I have actually just posted again on PU/PD board because I'm wondering whether I need to be doing this as she is getting more and more difficult to settle. Should I post that here or is the PU/PD board the right place for it?
Thanks

[Erin M]

Great!  I'd see where the PU/PD thread takes you -- if you need more help you can always post here -- or if it's not the right spot for your post, the PU/PD mod will shift it over if necessary.