Please help - can a toddler have insomnia??

[amom526]

I am so confused by my 24 month old's sleeping habits. I did baby whisperer with him starting at a few weeks old, and he learned to put himself to sleep fairly quickly. I can count on one hand the number of times he has slept through the entire night on his own. He never really needs us to go back to sleep - sometimes he needs help finding his paci or lovey, but other than that he's always just been a talker until he falls asleep. he can talk to himself for anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours at naps and bedtime before going to sleep.

We have gone through periods of more talking and less talking, and a tweak in his schedule would usually get him back on track. He has always been on the lower end of average sleep totals, so for most of his life, I have always assumed that if something is off, he is OT. For a long while, his schedule has been Wake up anywhere between 530-630 - he is usually happy to talk to himself in his crib until 7 when I get myself together. ( I also have a newborn). Put him in for a nap between 1115 and 12 depending when he woke up - wake him at 230 no matter when he fell asleep. BT at 630 or 615 on a really bad day. Until recently, he had not been having any playful periods during the night, but has been waking often for comfort or to find something etc.

Recently, He just seems TOTALLY sleepless. He can wake for the day at 5 am, I'll put him in for a nap at 12, and he is not falling asleep until 1 or later. I have been letting him sleep until 3. I have pushed bedtime to 7 pm, but he is not falling asleep untul 8 pm or later. he has also started playing in the night again for longer stretches of time. And then waking up at 5 am again ready to go! His behavior during the day is mostly normal, he does not SEEM particularly exhausted, and I am SO confused. I would say he is averaging about 10.5-11 hours or less in a 24 hour period. I thought this was just a really bad OT cycle, but now I wondering if I am just completely off on his sleep needs. Is it possible that I am expecting him to sleep too much? I have never ever attempted a later bedtime to solve a problem, but I am wondering if i should increase bedtime by a chunk? He still desperately needs a nap, I am sure of that. i know that I am so blessed that he is not crying for hours etc. but I really worry that he is chronically overtired, or that I am uhrting him by letting him talk in his crib for so many hours!

I'm just not sure what to do at this point, if anything. Thanks for reading

[Truly Blessed]

Hi there Honey,

(Hugs) to you. Okay, so if he seems like he has always been LSN, my best guess is that day sleep is robbing night. Also at this age lots of LO's are on naps of 2 hours maximum and a 13 hour day. So his nap is long and his day is short. Accumulated OT can work alongside short term UT, so if he UT at BT chances are UT will over ride OT every time...does that make sense 

IME the NW where LO's are not upset and chirpy tend to be UT. I would suggest starting to cap his nap at 2 hours maximum although I do think it will probably need cutting back more, but it's better to start out carefully. And I would also lengthen his A times and his day, so something like this:

WU 5.30/6.30

Nap 11.30/12.30 wake up at 1.30/2.30

BT 6.30/7.30

What do you think   

x.

[j.and.e]

Praps also he is practicing talking? Maybe having a language explosion? But agree praps a 2hr nap is too much for him. My ds2 has a max 1.5hr nap, but often is just an hr or 30mins at 24mo. He sleeps from 8pm to 7am xx

[amom526]

Thanks for responding. This has been going on for a while, so while I think it is partially developmental, I definitely think his routine is messed up. I agree that he is chronically OT, but is sometimes UT at bedtime. The problem is that he is having such a hard time falling asleep at all times of the day no matter how tired or not tired he is.

Last night we put him in at 7, and he fell asleep around 8. This was after a 1.5 hour nap from 1-2:30. He slept through until 445 am when he woke up hyper and ready to go for the day. he was mostly happy to stay in his crib until 7. I think he definitely tried to fall back to sleep a few times, but couldn't. I put him in for a nap at 11, which I haven't done in a really long time but I didn't know what else to do. He didn't fall asleep until 1230, but then he fell into a REALLY deep sleep. I woke him at 230. I just put him in (7 pm) although he did not seem all that tired, I'm just so confused. Do you think I should have kept him up later? I'm sure he will be up again before the crack of dawn tomorrow, and I'm just not sure what to do. I don't know how to break this cycle.

He is also definitely fighting sleep. When we put him in for a nap today, he was actually standing and talking for most of those 1.5 hours before he fell asleep. He just would not let himself lay down. When he finally layed down, he fell asleep. His naps have mostly been under 2 hours during all this, because it is taking him so long to fall asleep. But again, how do I break this cycle if he keeps waking at 445 am?

[Truly Blessed]

Hi Hun, more (Hugs) it's certainly a tricky situation. I do know that when chronically OT some LO's fight sleep for all they're worth, and when they come into lighter sleep in the morning they are unable to resettle. To me he sounds 'wired' with tiredness all the time.

I am going to ask my fellow Moderators to take a look and give us their opinion on how they would proceed too. Extra eyes are always a good thing  .

Just to check, he is an Independent Sleeper 

x.

[amom526]

Just to update-he fell asleep again at 8 last night, but slept till 545 yay!! 

What time would you do nap/would you cap it? I think I will put him in at 12, although he most likely will not fall asleep until 1.

[amom526]

And yes-as long as he has Paci and lovies, he goes to sleep on his own.

[*Becky*]

Hi there,
Just wanted to say that we experienced a big regression when DS turned 2 and it lasted about 6 weeks. It is quite a common age for things to go wonky so it could def be partly developmental. We had NWings which we never had before and lots of nap resistance. It turned out to be OT in the end but it was a tricky time.
I think if he has always been LSN then Vicki is spot on about the nap needing to be capped so at this age I def would not be letting him nap longer than 2 hours. My DS was on 1.5 by 2 years and he is average, def not low sleep needs but he needed a shorter nap to get a good night.
I would probably do the nap 6 hours after wake up and then cap at 1.5-2 whatever you think he can handle best (might need to do some experimenting) and then BT max 5 hours later.
What do you think?

[Truly Blessed]

Just to update-he fell asleep again at 8 last night, but slept till 545 yay!! 

Yay indeed 

Just wanted to say that we experienced a big regression when DS turned 2 and it lasted about 6 weeks. It is quite a common age for things to go wonky so it could def be partly developmental.

Really good point, us too, so things may settle down.

How did the day go 

x.

[amom526]

I put him in at 12-didn't fall asleep till 1. Woke up doing his weird crying but still half asleep thing that he does when hes OT at 1255. I think he went back to sleep until I woke him at 230, but not sure how much of that he was asleep. BT was 650 (probably a smidge too early). 730 now and he's still talking loudly in his crib, seems more upset than usual. hope he has an ok night and wakes after 530!

[*Becky*]

how did it go?

[amom526]

Fell asleep just after 8, 1 or 2 NW where he just needed lovies/resettled, and up at 445 happy and ready to go. Earliest I can get him in for a nap today is 1145/12 cause he has playgroup. I'm starting to think there is no way out of this.

ETA:

As I see it, I have 3 choices here:

1) do nothing. Keep trying to do what I am doing - which is basically following the schedule Becky listed above, and hope he eventually sorts it out on his own.

2) Try for a day of REALLY early BT. Even if it takes him 2 hours to fall asleep, at least he could catch up on sleep during the night.

3) Try for a very early nap day or possibly even a 2 (??) nap day. If he wakes at 445, I could try putting him in around 9. I have a feeling he would fall asleep eventually, but not sleep for more than 45 minutes. My hope would be to then just put him to bed at early or normal time, so that he will actually be tired at bedtime. My fear would be that this nap would be very short, he would not nap the rest of the day, and would then be even more OT that he is now,

thoughts?

[j.and.e]

Does he seem tired at nap and bt, but just cant settle? Or is he just v low sleep needs and needs to drop his nap to settle at bt and sleep to a sensible time? Xx

[Lolly]

I wouldn't do a 2 nap day to be honest - I don't think that will help your bedtimes ar this age.

It could well be a regression, we had trouble with my DD at this age, she settled down after a couple of weeks and we tried very hard to stick to her normal routine no matter what. She went back to a nap and decent bedtime for a couple of months, but for us the regression was really the start of the 1-0 - earlier than I wanted but she had dropped her nap totally by 2.5.

Laura

[amom526]

He definitely can't go without a nap. We had 1 or 2 no nap days for the first time ever when we traveled 2 weeks ago. He was a total mess and that definitely contributed to the massive OT we have now.

He does seem tired, but not super tired. But even when he is obviously tired in his crib, he is totally not letting himself fall asleep.

He napped from 1-3 (went in at 12) with 1 OT wake up at the 1 hour mark. don't know what to do for BT tonight...