Baby will not go to sleep until midnight, but wants to sleep in!

[Krystol]

My baby girl is 3.5 months old.  She was completely reversed on days and nights and then we started using these methods, and suddenly she was a fabulous sleeper!!  BUT she has managed to make bedtime later and later.  She spends the whole evening fussing or wanting to play, and sleeping for 20-45 minutes and then wakes up.

Our Day looks like this:

E 8am
A
S930
E1130
A
S1pm
E2pm
A
S330
E430
A
S6
E645
A
S815pm... Bedtime...
But at this point she quite predictably wakes 30-45 min later, and then is up and down for the rest of the evening.  I have tried putting her back to sleep right away, nusing then back to sleep (she fights the sleep for a good hr and it's beyond frustrating), and have tried just letting her be awake for more activity.  She is happy all day, not fussy, but in the evening she's very fussy, pulls off from nursing and cries, screams randomly... etc.  She does have some spitting up issues, and I suppose could be teething already.  Her bedtime routine is putting her in her sleeping bag, giving her a last nursing, and singing to her before putting her in bed.  She falls asleep fine... but then wakes up soon after.

She tends to finally go to sleep around 11pm-1am.. then sleeps soundly until 8 am when I wake her!  But we just need to rotate her schedule backwards a bit/eliminate the fussy-ness. 

I have tried waking her at 7am, (have to wake her at 8am too), tried various amounts of A and S time, and she tends to nurse before sleep again, but try hard not to let her nurse to sleep.  She goes to sleep easily at nap times, she sucks her thumb a fair it, her afternoon naps can vary from 45 min -2 hrs, usually on the shorter side.

We also have a 2.5 yr old who sleeps from 7-7 no problem.

Any suggestions?!

[Erin M]

My thought would be that I would stretch your first A time until it's closer to 2 hours -- I think what she's doing is basically treating that first nap like an extension of her night sleep and giving you a 12-12 day instead of the more typical 7-7 or 8-8.  I'd say keep her up a little longer, make sure she's seeing the sunlight during that time and see if you can hold her out for a little longer.  You want her on 2 solid naps at this point plus an end of day cat nap and then bed time with A times somewhere around  hours (except after the cat nap).

As she seems generally content for the rest of the day and you are getting some good naps earlier in the day, I think you can probably rule out discomfort (unless there's anything that makes you feel it might be at play). 

When she wakes after BT, keep everything as low key as you possibly can just to reinforce that it's nighttime and not time to be up (which I'm sure you're trying but imagine it must be hard as she wants to be up for so long). 

[Krystol]

Thanks for the tips, we'll give it a try and let you know what happens

[Krystol]

hmmm... tonight was just as bad   Her day looked like this :

E 8am
A
S 10 am
E12
A
S2
E4
A
S5:45
E6:15
A
S8pm Bedtime.... but was up and down until 12:30

Think She should loose the catnap?

[Erin M]

Your day looks really good -- I would think she's way too little to be losing the cat nap at this point, most babies don't until 5/6 months.  Is this the first day that your schedule has worked out this well?  Im' wondering if maybe she just needs a couple days of a schedule like this to help smooth out the nights???

The other thing I wonder with the up and down is some sort of discomfort -- is she showing any signs of discomfort when she's up like this?  I know you mentioned spitting up issues -- anything that makes you think reflux (though TBH with her being so happy and sleeping well for the rest of the day, I wouldn't think so). 

[Krystol]

Her day schedule is usually pretty good, but 7 pm comes and she is a mess!  The only thing that makes me wonder discomfort is she tends to pull away from nursing and cry off and on (in the evenings, not day).  Today she had a nearly 3 hr morning nap and 2 hr afternoon nap (both I had to wake her from) and then skipped the cat nap... but same results!  She's driving me crazy because  I know she cam sleep long periods.

[Erin M]

Hmm, do you feel like your let down is any different at that point -- faster, slower, etc?  Are you still getting good burps in at those feedings?  Feel like there's something else there...I'll keep thinking on this one.

[becj86]

Can you try shortening the a time to bed? She's doing a full a time off a catnap which most babies can't do... Are you treating all the wakings after bedtime as night wakings? No lights, no interaction, just settling?

You say that she is a mess by 7pm... That's probably when bedtime should be.

[Krystol]

Thanks Erin, I appreciate the help!  let down and burps seem normal, if anything it should be easier on her belly by then as I'm not as full as early in the day.  It seems like cluster feeding combined with not being able to break the routine... maybe??  I have no idea.  We tried waking her earlier in the day yesterday thinking maybe it would at least bring her routine back by a couple hours, but it only made the afternoon and evening bad.  I think the day as a whole has improved with making it 2 hrs of A time and 2 hrs of sleep time for naps.  Tried dropping catnap one day too and that didn't help.

Becj86 - Maybe shortening A time before bed would help... but she doesn't seem that sleepy, we've been trying to read cues on that.  The evening wakes we have tried keeping it all low key, only nursing in the dark in her room, or at least in the dark in the living room etc etc.  Though there have also been evenings that we have just given up and let her be awake for a full A time in there to wear her out.  By her being a mess at 7, I meant after bedtime - she's great until bedtime, then is just up and down and all over the place

Basically it feels like no matter what we try her schedule ends up being that 30-45 min after bed tim she wakes up, we go in a few times to pat her back to sleep (works quite quickly), then after a few pats back to sleep she REALLY wakes up, is a screaming mess/seems hungry, feed her, then she will usually sleep another 30-45 min, repeat the above routine, be awake for nearly a full A period (whether we let her be awake or stay in her room trying to shhh/pat to sleep again, then she will either eventually fall asleep or get nursed then fall asleep around midnight.

I feel like if it's cluster feeding it's going on too long!  No idea, and I feel like we are slowly getting later and later working back to a night/day confusion!

Thanks for the help and thought!!

[becj86]

Maybe shortening A time before bed would help... but she doesn't seem that sleepy, we've been trying to read cues on that

The waking frequently shortly after bedtime is pretty classic of overtiredness, as is the difficulty settling. If she was playing happily, I'd maybe think she was UT but when she's hyper and having trouble settling and then waking frequently, it just points to OT.

[Krystol]

So we decided she was having reflux issues after all, and since starting some natural medicine for it she's certainly doing better, but still has rough evenings and like clockwork wakes after 30-40 min and then is awake off and on for a few hrs before finally settling.  Doesn't seem to be over or under tired - we have changed the schedule to experiment with both thoughts, and getting no where.  I'm guessing no one has any magical ideas at this point?

[Erin M]

What are you trying right now (in terms of nap times, A times, etc)?

[sheaton]

This is really interesting as my 3month old is the exact same at night... He was 11-1am bedtime but we have crept it back to 10pm with lots of cluster feeds from 4pm onwards! Its a mess though. My dd goes down at 7 and we would love to have some evening time to recouperate from the day but its like a tag team here. She goes down & he starts to play! Both get bath massage, milk bedtime routine from 6pm.
Im being strict about getting ds up at 7am with dd now - b4 i wld let him snooze so I could have breakfast with my dd. Its kind of working, he just gets very OT which is where we are at just now. He is up a lot at night.
Going to keep an eye on this thread

[Krystol]

So most days go like this now -

E8am
A
S10am
E12pm
A
S2pm
E2:45
A
S4:45
E5:30
A
S7
E730
A
S930
Then she usually wakes again 30 min later and needs another nursing or patting, or several... then goes to sleep for teh night, so we are better than it was (midnight-1am) but all these short little sleeps are frustrating (she wakes after 30-40 min for all those naps times, we aren't waking her)  I let her try to go back to sleep on her own when she wakes up, but she doesn't)

Sheaton... Good luck... It sucks.

[Erin M]

I'd try a bit more A time for your first A (only 10-15 minutes) and then if you still get a short nap, shorten your next A time.  In your EASY above, if she's only getting a short nap first thing and waking before 11, you're then giving her more than 3 hours of A time for her next A -- so you're kind of in the awful OT spiral that babies can get in -- it also probably contributes to that waking 30 minutes after her bed time. 

Is there anywhere where she will nap better (like a stroller, car seat, swing, etc)?  You can always get a good nap in that way as well to try to head off the overtiredness that's going to come with short naps.

I'm glad to hear that some things are better though!