What's going on with my LO - 4 am wake ups

[pennypie1]

My LO will be 9 months in 1 week.  Up until a couple weeks ago he was sleeping and napping like a champ.  Our schedule looked something like this.

LO would wake around 6-7 am.  He can usually stay up about 2.5 hours before first nap, dependent upon what time he woke up he goes to nap around 9. He usually sleeps for 1.5 hours and goes for his next around 1:30 pm. sleeps for about 1 -1.5 hours.  He then went to bed around 5:30 - 6.  This seems super early to us but he seemed to be ready for bed at this time.  He wakes to eat 1 -2 times during the night.  He gets at least 20 oz of bottles and solid food during the day. 

  Since he was getting a bit older we tried to extend his bedtime to 6:30 with the same nap schedule as listed above.  First he started waking at 5 am consistently for a week.  Then when we put him to bed he started waking up after his first sleep cycle and crying and started having multiple night wakings.  It was taking him a couple of hours to soothe him to get him back to sleep.  Then, the early wake ups at 3:30 - 4:30 started happening.  We have started to put  him to bed at 5 pm since he is soo overtired. Since the 5 pm bed time has stopped waking up after his first sleep cycle and stopped hysterical night wakings .  But he is still waking up at 4:30 am and seems visibly tired.   He wakes up so early that our whole 9 am and 1 pm nap schedule has been thrown out the window.   

Is there anything I can to.  I have been reading on the forum that no matter what wake up time keep the first nap at 9 am.  Will that help even for a 4:30 am WU??  I am thinking maybe he is hungry at 4:30 should i dream feed him at 3:30??

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

[anna*]

He needs his first nap to be much later. At 9 months old you're really looking at a 3-3.5hr first A time. From a 5pm bedtime, a 4.30am wake up isn't even a short night, so you need to push his naps later so that he gets to a reasonable bedtime. I would make his first nap AT LEAST 9am, if not 10am - so 3hrs from whatever you consider to be a reasonable start time in the morning. So his day might look like

5am WU
9.30am nap (expect him to wake after 30 mins but hopefully he'll be tired enough that you can resettle him).
11am wake
2.30pm nap
4pm wake
7pm asleep for the night

Of course if he does two short naps you'll have to either try to get a cat nap in (not ideal) or do an early bedtime, but hopefully at least one of the naps will be long enough that you can get him to a 6pm or later bedtime.

Oh also, when he starts waking at 4.30am can you rush in and feed him like a night feed right away and get him back to sleep that way? I know it's not perfect but I do that with my little girl because I am so terrified of EWs (my son was awful). If I feed her at 5am she will go back to sleep for a couple of hours, but if I wait for her to resettle herself she'll wake herself up more and more and then we'll be up for the day. So at 2am I'll wait and wait and give her a good chance to put herself back to sleep, but at 4.30-5am I totally rush in there to feed and get her back to sleep.

If you try a routine tweak for a week and he's still waking at 4.30, then a Wake to Sleep at 3.30am is another thing to try.

[pennypie1]

Thank you so much!! I am going to try longer awake times.  I hope this helps.

Today LO woke up around 3am after feeding him at 2:45.  He was so hard to settle and we couldn't get him back to sleep.  He went back to bed at 5:15 and woke up at 7:15.  So I am going to try to get him on a new schedule today acting as if 7:15 was his first wake up time.  I will try for his first nap around 10 am and try to follow a similar schedule as you suggested. 

[pennypie1]

Me again.  Still not much luck.  For a follow up to yesterday.  He woke around 2:45am for a feeding

3am-5:15am - Awake
5:15-7:15 -Sleep
7:15-10:00am - Awake
10:00 - 11:00am - Sleep
11:00am- 2:00pm - Awake
2:15 - 3:00pm - Sleep
6:00pm - Prepare for bedtime sleep
6:45pm - Sleep for night
10:45pm - Woke to eat back to sleep
3:10am- fussing so rushed in to feed him to help settle.  Did not work very well, he nursed for a little and then started grabbing at my face to play.  Tried to get him to settle in crib and everytime I tried to leave would get upset.  Tried to get dad to soothe but he just wanted me.  Finally fell asleep on me at 4:15 put in crib
4:15-5:00 am - Sleep
5:00 am - Woke up crying decided to start day


I know he is getting some teeth in as he has been chewing on his hands alot lately.  I should also add that I used to nurse him to sleep for night sleep only, but thought this is why he may be waking.  So I have been doing the gentle withdrawal, putting his in his crib sleepy but awake, patting his back for a couple of minutes, leaving my hand there and then when he is asleep leaving the room.  The funny thing is that for naps he goes to sleep perfectly fine by himself, sometimes will complain up to 10 minutes and fall asleep on his own.  But we did the gentle withdrawal for naps many months ago.  I was just trying to fill him up for the night by nursing him before bed.

Do you think maybe he is undertired or should have 1 nap instead of 2, eating too much at night?  I have no idea what to do.

[eva026]

When we get those long cot parties at night or EWs it's a sign it's time to increase the A time.
We just had one last night and a 45min nap after a 3.5h A this morning so it's time to add another 15min to DD's A times.
At 9mo I think my LO was doing just over 3h A time and I was cutting the 2nd nap by 9.5mo otherwise BT became a nightmare.
Looking at your EASY, if you are still getting 1h and 40min naps during the day and the long NWs, your LO could be UT.

Take a look at these links for a guideline:
 Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep
Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?"

and with us the 2-1 started at 9.5mo so here is some info about that:
10 to 12 mth old Sleep Gone Wonky, and the 2 - 1 Nap Switch

It's horrible when your lovely routine goes to pot all of a sudden, isn't it? It takes a few days for LO to adjust to the new A time too, so keep that in mind.

[pennypie1]

Thank you for your quick response!!   Why do their schedules have to change!!!! 

I was reading the 2:1 nap link.  I am confused, would it be best to cap the morning or afternoon nap? 

Or should I first try for longer Awake times and leave the naps as is?

My ideal schedule would be for him to wake between 6-7am.  I know I need to try for later bedtimes since he used to go to bed no later than 6pm. 

[eva026]

Why do their schedules have to change!!!! 

I wish they wouldn't, just as you get all settled and happy that things are semi-predictable, they go and change on you!:)

Personally I cap the pm nap because that works for us.
 I think it depends on your BT, because ours is 8pm so I can expect LO to sleep till around 7-7.30am, followed by a 3.5hA and a long nap, then a 3.20hA and a 30min CN taking us to a 3hA and BT. When we were moving BT to adjust to daylight saving time we moved it 15min up at a time and held it for a few days to allow her body to adjust. If you are trying to move both your BT till later and increase the As at the same time it might get a bit complicated but I think the sleep moderators will be along soon with some more practical info.

[pennypie1]

Well things are not getting much better.  The only thing I am getting better at is soothing him back to sleep when he wakes up around 3-4am.  I have been able to get him back to sleep until 5-6am.  Sometimes he eats and goes right back to sleep.  Other times he screams when I leave the room and wakes up every 20 minutes or so and needs reassurance and his back rubbed.   We have started a later bedtime around 7pm but he is still waking around 5-6am.  Here are a couple of his days.  I have been trying not to put him to nap until 9am as some people suggested this causes early wakeups.

5:15am - Awake
Awake time (4 hours)
9:15-10:20am -Sleep (1 hours)
Awake time (3hours 20min)
1:40-3:20pm - Sleep (1 hour and 40 min)
Awake time (3 hours 25 minutes)
6:45pm - Sleep for the night
He woke up to eat around 11pm and 3am.

5:20 am - Awake
Awake time 3 hours 30 min
8:50-10:10 - Sleep (1 hour 20 minutes)
Awake time  (3 hours 30 min)
1:50 - 3:05 - Sleep (1 hour 15 minutes)
Awake time ( 3 hours 40 minutes)
6:45- Sleep for the night
Woke up at 10pm and 2:00 to eat.  Woke up at 3:00 and soothes back to sleep

5:00am - Awake
Awake time 4 hours
9:00 - 10:25 - Sleep (1 hour 30 minutes)
Awake time 3 hours 30 minutes
2:00-3:30 - Sleep (1 hour 30 mintues)
Awake time (3 hours 15 mintues)
6:45 pm- Sleep for night
I forgot to jot down the awake times at night.

Next day he finally woke at 6:20 am ( FINALLY)
Awake time (3 hours 20 minutes)
9:45 - 11:15 - Sleep (1 hour 30 minutes)
Awake time  (2 hours 45 minutes)
2:00 - 3:30 Sleep (1 hour 40 minutes)
Awake time 3 hours 30 minutes)
7pm -Sleep for the night

We  finally got better morning time but then last night he woke up every 20 minutes for 3 hours.  I think he might be teething but I am not sure.  Should I try to keep this schedule any suggestions.  My main concern is his early wakings and what time his first nap should be.  Should I wait till 9 am for nap time??  I have no idea what to do and am so confused.  Am I headed in the right direction?

[pennypie1]

Also another question.  I would like to night wean him but think I need to get his schedule and early mornings in order first.  Any suggestions for night weaning as well.  He always seems to wake up around 10-11pm and then again around 2:30 - 4:am.  Seems like he is having trouble going more than 5 hours at night without eating.  He is a big baby 9 months and 23 pounds.  He eats 25 ounces by his 10-11 pm feed and has 3 solid meals per day.  He eats breastmilk.  I have been pumping and bottle feeding him since he lost interest in nursing.  I do nurse him at night since it is much easier.  He does not seem to have a problem when he is sleepy since there is nothing else going on.  Sorry for all the questions but would love to get his sleep on track!!!

[eva026]

Your last day looks great to me:)
Remember that it takes them a few days for their body to adjust to the new BT and longer As
I hope the mods will jump in if I am giving you wrong advice, but from what I gather with my LO and info I've gotten here is that they only need about 11h of night sleep now so a WU of around 6am if your BT is 7pm is bang on.
Your A times look good too and they seem to be giving you good naps, so the total amount of sleep should be ok. That leads me to think his wake ups every 20min should not be OT and could in fact be pain, like you said. Have pain meds helped?
I personally don't do set naps so I can't say how they are supposed to look. In our case going by the amount LO has slept works, so if I get a long nap (or a night over 10h) I do a normal A time but if the nap is short I cut the A time by 30min.

You might want to hop on the breast feeding board about the night weaning. We didn't do that here either:) DH did the DF at 11pm so I got to sleep from 10pm till her NF at 4/5/6am and then till 7am (our BT is 8pm) and I decided that I could live with doing that as long as DD needed.
She suddenly started refusing the DF just before 10mo so we dropped that and a few days later she stopped waking (mostly lol) for her NF.