Author Topic: 9 month old waking 7 times a night (Read 5275 times)

ArianaCR · « **on:** January 16, 2013, 04:33:59 am »

Ok, so my 9 month old (but born a month early) has been getting progressively worse at sleeping over the past few months. He used to sleep through the night and go down awake for naps easily. Last night I had to comfort him 7 times and every time I try to put him back down he wakes immediately and starts screaming. I feed him about twice a night and hold him the other times. In the early morning I resorted to letting him sleep while I held him because I'd been trying for an hour to put him back in his crib. He basically has to be asleep to be put down for any naps/night time sleep now, and he wakes VERY easily, starts screaming, and won't stop till I hold him (holding, rocking, and nursing sometimes don't work). I've also resorted to a pacifier to resettle him when he wakes from a nap after only 45 minutes. I don't use a pacifier normally. I don't think he's sick or teething but he has been walking with assistance a lot better over the past few days so maybe a developmental leap/separation anxiety combo? He is still swaddled because he needs oxygen when he sleep and it's the only way I can keep him from pulling the tubing out of his nose. He doesn't have a lovey (no point when he's swaddled) and he never gets a pacifier at night. Any suggestions for how I can get him to sleep through?

becj86 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2013, 08:34:11 am »

Do you have a humidifier to help with the dryness the oxygen causes? That can be seriously uncomfortable and prevent sleep.

What's his day routine?

ArianaCR · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2013, 17:17:08 pm »

Yes, we use a humidifier every night. During the day, he does 2-2.5 hour awake times with two naps and a catnap. For a while I tried extending the awake time but that only made it worse and other people told me to cut it back.

becj86 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 17, 2013, 09:13:37 am »

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 16, 2013, 17:17:08 pm

For a while I tried extending the awake time but that only made it worse and other people told me to cut it back.

When was that? Now, even using his corrected age, he's right at the tail end of the age range for dropping the catnap.

What is his EASY? I'm just trying to get a picture of nap lengths, etc. and how the overall day is working.

To be completely honest, I'm not sure sleep training is going to make a huge difference until his medical issues are sorted. I will see if I can get someone else with more relevant experience to have a look.

ArianaCR · « **Reply #4 on:** January 17, 2013, 17:14:58 pm »

I have been using a more Babywise version of the schedule which is basically the same as Baby Whisperer but with more sleeping. As for the oxygen, he's been on it since he was a week old and previously slept through the night and taken good naps (put down awake, no pacifier needed, etc). Thanks for the help!!!!!!!!

Here's what our day looks like:
7a wake, nurse, solids
9 nap
1030 wake, nurse, solids close to 12 (he's been waking after 45 mins of the nap so I give a paci which usually works to get him back to sleep)
1245-1p nap
2ish wake (he has been napping about an hour here), nurse
430ish nap
5 wake, nurse
6 solids
730 asleep

becj86 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2013, 20:00:39 pm »

Looks like the more frequent naps mean that none of them is restorative, so he's likely getting overtired by the end of the day. The 45min waking in the middle of nap 1 - this indicates he's having trouble getting through that transition between sleep cycles - could be discomfort, could also be undertiredness or overstimulation. My bet would be undertired.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2013, 21:23:41 pm »

I wondered if he's OT by the end of the day too. But starting UT at bec said.

2 hours is an appropriate A time for a 4/5 month old. At 9 months both mine were doing 3.5 hours. I can't posts links but am sure bec will but I think aiming for a more age appropriate routine will help the naps and NWs.

becj86 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 17, 2013, 21:41:19 pm »

Here are some sample routines that have worked for various babies: Sample EASY Routines from 0 - 13mths+

Here is some other useful info: Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?" All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Jenn© · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2013, 13:59:10 pm »

OK, I stink at EASY, but good with preemie/medical. Have you tried any sort of tape to keep the O2 in place? Socks on a hand so one could be unswaddled?
What would happen if you added another night feed for a time? Any other health issues such as reflux? Will keep thinking, but LO is awake now.

ArianaCR · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2013, 17:25:39 pm »

Thanks for all the help. I know his A times are short for a Baby Whisperer baby but they're ok for a Babywise baby. I'm willing to try increasing them again though (I tried several weeks ago and it didn't help at all). Right now, he normally goes down for all his naps including the cat nap quickly and doesn't wake up from any naps or night sleeps happy/playing (always crying). He doesn't even wake up happy in the morning (either I wake him or he wakes crying). So he doesn't meet the signs for needing the 3-2 nap transition or increasing A time (from bec's links above) except that he wakes at 45 mins from some naps. Do you still think I should try increasing A time? Also, it seems that when I keep him up even 15 minutes later he is VERY difficult to get down for a nap (lots of screaming).

Jenn, for the oxygen I can't put the stickies on his face because his skin is too sensitive and it gets very irritated. I can try taping it at the back where you adjust the sizing for the nasal cannula though. Socks on his hands won't work because he just shoves a fist or arm at his nose and the tubing comes out. He doesn't have any other health issues and he only needs oxygen because he has periodic breathing so his oxygen saturation levels drop whenever he sleeps. I don't know what would happen if I added another night feed. I do about two now, basically because the screaming escalates to a point that nothing else seems to help. In the past I've done zero. Do you think he needs more food at night if used to be able to sleep through without any?

ArianaCR · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2013, 17:31:30 pm »

Also if it helps here is last night's ordeal:

715p alseep in crib
730p crying (rocked back to sleep)
1130p crying (attempted rocking, no success so fed)
1230a crying (rocked back to sleep)
340 crying (attempted pick up and rock, no success so fed)
430 crying (rocked back to sleep)
450 crying (rocked back to sleep)
5 crying (rocked back to sleep)
620 crying (attempted rocking, no success so fed)
730a I woke him

becj86 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2013, 20:47:15 pm »

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 18, 2013, 17:25:39 pm

Right now, he normally goes down for all his naps including the cat nap quickly and doesn't wake up from any naps or night sleeps happy/playing (always crying).

Has he always cried upon waking? That was a sign of accumulated OT for my boy $:-\$

A restorative nap is two sleep cycles - usually about 1.5hr. A nap of 1hr15 or 1hr at this age almost always indicates undertired at naptime, where a 30min natural waking is almost always overtired at naptime.

I think he's going down easily because he's so used to going to sleep at those times (he's been doing it a long time now - its become habitual) so it might be easier but not necessarily meeting his sleep needs. Pushing the A times will help, I believe.

katie80 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2013, 21:22:59 pm »

Hi there, just hopping on for a bit more support. Bec is right, pushing the A time should definitely help. Lots and lots of babies have come through this forum and we would give all of them the same advice with an EASY like that. If he doesn't do well with pushing 15min, then just to by 5-10. It takes some babies a few days to get used to a new A time.

I know you say Babywise expects more sleep, but you can't make a baby sleep longer than he is tired enough to do. I have actually read the first Babywise book as it was recommended by an old friend, but I couldn't go through with it. I did follow some of the routine info until I found Babywhisperer when DD was short napping. I had kept her on too short of an A time and we never got good naps until we straightened her out with PUPD, got rid of the paci, and got on a good A time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't actually remember specific times in the Babywise book and they assume almost every early waking from a nap is down to OT rather than UT. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.

It's possible your DS wakes crying because he's not an independent sleeper. It's possible he wakes crying because that's just his personality. My DS woke crying until about 15mo, it's just how he was.

*Kara* · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2013, 22:24:59 pm »

Hello

Just popping on to give my take too hun.. I agree with previous posters, his naps are too frequent and not at all restorative. His first nap is too soon after he wakes for the day, so he takes a short nap... babies rouse after 45 mins of sleep and will transition to the next cycle if they are tired enough to do so... if not, they wake up and will need another nap after a short time again, creating a cycle of short, poor quality naps for the whole day. Once night comes, he is completely overtired and unable to rest enough to sleep well, causing multiple wake ups that he cannot get through without your help to go back to sleep. Overtired babies are much like a hyper child and are unable to calm down.

Make sense? I am sure that you would find your day much easier to balance if you had 2 nice naps each day to work around as opposed to feeling like you never get a break with multiple short naps??

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 17, 2013, 17:14:58 pm

Here's what our day looks like:
7a wake, nurse, solids
9 nap
1030 wake, nurse, solids close to 12 (he's been waking after 45 mins of the nap so I give a paci which usually works to get him back to sleep)
1245-1p nap
2ish wake (he has been napping about an hour here), nurse
430ish nap
5 wake, nurse
6 solids
730 asleep

BabyWise does suggest more sleep but as PPs have said, a baby who is well rested won't sleep as much as a house cat will. It would be nice, but biologically, a human only needs so much sleep in a day to be well rested and happy.

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 18, 2013, 17:25:39 pm

I know his A times are short for a Baby Whisperer baby but they're ok for a Babywise baby.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but we don't condone the use of BabyWise for more than one reason. His A times might be by the book for BabyWise, but they are clearly not working for him as an individual.

If you want help with BabyWhispering, we are happy to help

Jenn© · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2013, 22:32:56 pm »

Here's a weird idea for the O2, KY jelly. You put a smear on each cheek where the tubing goes. Let it get tacky, then put the tubing over it. Not foolproof, but it does help.

ArianaCR · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2013, 22:53:44 pm »

I really appreciate the help and the quick responses. I'm willing to try something new for sure so what do you all suggest for the rest of the day? Also how do you suggest I handle nights? Should I comfort and/or feed him each time or do you guys recommend a cry it out deal? So far today it was very difficult to get him down for naps (1.5 hrs, 30 mins). He woke at 235pm from his last nap and it's 350pm now. Normally he would take a 30 min cat nap around 430pm so he could make it to bed time.

For the O2, I'll try the KY thing. Do you still put the nasal cannula around the back of his head at this age? I am because that's how they did it when he was a newborn. Normally on an adult I'd position it so that it tightens at the front of the neck instead.

*Kara* · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2013, 22:58:42 pm »

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 18, 2013, 22:53:44 pm

do you guys recommend a cry it out deal?

BabyWhispering in no way supports the use of CIO or CC, Tracy believed that it would break the bond of trust between mother and child.

Have you used CIO in the past? This is very important to how we address changes going forward.

I would suggest a nap now around 430pm for an hour or so to get him to bedtime. His last nap was only 30 mins so not at all restorative. Hopefully, the hour of sleep will take the edge off of the overtiredness that will have happened... then shoot for bedtime at 730pm/745pm.

ArianaCR · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2013, 23:17:35 pm »

Ok, I'll shoot for a 430 nap and a 730/745 bed time. We have done the Sleep Easy Solution which is basically cry it out with checks. It was a few months ago and worked very quickly (he only needed one or two checks before going to sleep) and his situation was much less dire then (he just wasn't sleeping through the night anymore--naps were still fine).

*Kara* · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2013, 05:57:30 am »

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 18, 2013, 23:17:35 pm

We have done the Sleep Easy Solution which is basically cry it out with checks

I am familiar with the SleepEasy Solution - much like Ferber's CC method. I have direct experience with Ferber (you can find my story here: Kara & Alexandra's Story)

BTW - if it "worked" you wouldn't be here

A lesson I learned the hard way too!

How did BT go?

ArianaCR · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2013, 06:38:08 am »

Kara, if BT is bed time it went fine. He wouldn't sleep for the 430 nap though. He just woke for the first time tonight (11pm). Tomorrow I'll start extending A time by 15 mins each awake cycle in hopes that it helps naps and nights. Do I wait a few days after each time I add 15 mins to let him adjust or just add 15 mins to each cycle each day?

becj86 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 19, 2013, 10:37:08 am »

Quote from: ArianaCR on January 19, 2013, 06:38:08 am

Do I wait a few days after each time I add 15 mins to let him adjust

Yes

You may find he needs a little help to sleep a full nap still - a reassuring hand on him or a little shush/pat if he stirs.

*Ali* · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2013, 12:49:35 pm »

Have you read any of the BabyWhisperer books by Tracy Hogg? If not I would highly recommend them. It is so helpful to have an understanding of the principles behind all the methodology/techniques Tracy recommended.

This link is also helpful for anyone who has done controlled crying or CIO Regaining Trust of Your Child
If your LO is particularly susceptible to OT you may even find you need to adjust each A time individually and just add 10 mins to the first A time for a couple days and then add 10 mins to the second A time for a couple days and so on. It depends on the LO.
Getting him sleeping independently again will really help with the NWs I believe.
Good luck

Erin M · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2013, 18:04:41 pm »

A times were always our secret to better naps here -- it was really, really hard to stretch A times for us but we had to do it very slowly, only about 5-10 minutes every few days. So, don't lose hope if it doesn't work right away.

*Kara* · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2013, 23:25:42 pm »

agree with previous posters... A time increases can take some time to work well as LO will almost always have a touch of OT while adjusting... I used to get shorter naps with a 30 min wakeup but could easily resettle to sleep.

ArianaCR · « **Reply #24 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:54:29 am »

Last night he woke screaming at 11p and 4a (only calmed with a feed) and again at 620a (dozed him off with a feed until 645). That's much better than the 8 times he woke the night before. I extended all his A times today and he took long naps so we skipped the catnap. Here's what it looked like:

645 wake
9 nap (fell asleep on our walk and slept 1.5 hrs without intervention by me)
140 nap (after 20 mins of screaming while I tried to comfort--only able to get him down by nursing but then I had to wake him after 2 hrs
340 wake
730 asleep
820 crying but comforted immediately by PU

I don't know what the rest of the night will hold but any ideas on anything I should do differently tomorrow or why the 2nd nap was so difficult at first? PS It's been a VERY long time since he took a 2 hr nap and I'm really excited he didn't wake after 45 mins for either of them. PPS if you need to move this post since it's about naps now that's fine--just didn't think I should start a new thread because it's all a big cycle

*Kara* · « **Reply #25 on:** January 20, 2013, 04:45:18 am »

Excellent progress!!! He was likely just a little bit overtired for the second nap - he's just not used to the longer A times yet

Right now, it's best to get him sorted into a good routine and if that means a quick nursing before he goes down, that's okay. It will get easier as he adjusts to the longer awake times.

The wake up at 820pm was likely just a bit of OT as well... that will subside as he adjusts too.

You are doing so great!

*Ali* · « **Reply #26 on:** January 20, 2013, 13:48:34 pm »

His middle A time was 3hrs10 which is a huge jump and probably a tad too much.

I agree you are doing great

ArianaCR · « **Reply #27 on:** January 20, 2013, 17:02:55 pm »

Hi there, that middle A time was meant to be an increase of only 15 minutes (he was doing 2 hrs 30 already) but I had such a bad time getting him to sleep it went long.

Last night was pretty bad again...woke screaming at 820p, 10p, 1a, 515a, and 620a (although the last one my husband woke him accidentally while trying to fix his oxygen tubing). Today he was tired (I guess from all the night wakings) and went to sleep 10 mins early, then woke at 45 mins and needed a paci to go back to sleep. Should I just stick to the plan of increasing A times every few days and see if he comes around? If he takes a short nap this afternoon I might have to toss in another catnap.

Thank you again for all the help and encouragement. I'll be getting the Baby Whisperer book from the library in short order

*Ali* · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2013, 21:51:40 pm »

Yes I would stick with the new longer A times for a few days to give his body time to adjust.

Can you do early bedtime rather than a CN?

*Kara* · « **Reply #29 on:** January 20, 2013, 21:54:26 pm »

Agree with Ali... best to do an early bedtime than a third nap - it will just confuse his body clock...

ArianaCR · « **Reply #30 on:** January 21, 2013, 10:17:51 am »

He wouldn't sleep for the catnap attempt i made before reading your posts so you guys are right. So far tonight he woke crying at 925pm which escalated to screaming. Tried to rock/comfort for about 20 mins an ended up nursing him back to sleep. He just woke crying again at 245am with his first night poo in months. Crazy. Oh and he started babbling for the first time yesterday (late I know) so maybe new skills develpment is causing some disruption? Thanks thanks thanks again!

*Kara* · « **Reply #31 on:** January 21, 2013, 22:43:26 pm »

For sure the new talking bit can cause sleep disruptions! Be warned he may chat to himself while totally asleep throughout the night now

It's super cute!

Sounds like he was just a bit OT from the shorter PM nap and then the long run to bedtime... don't worry about APing him back to sleep right now hun.. An OT baby is generally harder to settle and right now, sleep trumps all

You are doing great!

ArianaCR · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2013, 17:02:14 pm »

Sorry to post over and over. I got two good naps yesterday (2 hr and 1.5 hr) and have extended the A times to 3 hrs except for the first. He is SO tired and falls asleep just after 2 hrs. Anyway last night, even with the good naps yesterday and the increased A times, he woke 9 times: 810p, 10, 1155, 130a, 420, 510, 525, 625, 650. Any ideas for what to do now? His first A time today was again just over 2 hrs and I believe I'll have to wake him at 1.5 hrs from his first nap (no props, yeah!!!!).

*Kara* · « **Reply #33 on:** January 23, 2013, 05:52:13 am »

Yikes! That sounds like discomfort more than routine to me... any new teeth?

ArianaCR · « **Reply #34 on:** January 23, 2013, 19:20:44 pm »

Nope no teeth on the horizon and he's not sick or having digestive issues either.

*Kara* · « **Reply #35 on:** January 24, 2013, 05:50:48 am »

hmmm... could be a touch too much daysleep, though UT wakeups are generally a lovely cot party for an hour or more with a happy kid...

I think we might be best to just leave him be for a few days to see if he settles into the new routine with only 2 naps.

Yay for no props!

ArianaCR · « **Reply #36 on:** January 24, 2013, 17:24:52 pm »

He never wakes happy or has cot parties

His naps yesterday were 1 hr and 1.5 hrs and last night he woke up 5 times, two of which were extremely long. Even nursing didn't work. I tried tylenol just in case it was teething or something and that didn't help either. I'll keep trying the two naps a day but it's really difficult because he ends up with a 4 hour A time at the end of the day due to the short 1st nap and the short first A time (trying to extend but it's really hard).

*Kara* · « **Reply #37 on:** January 26, 2013, 05:35:47 am »

I would keep pushing that first A time, a 1 hr AM nap shows he isn't tired enough hun... He's likely OT at the end of the day and this is causing the multiple wake ups... Push it out 15 mins and hold for a couple days then do another 15 etc...

I used to extend A times by just walking around the house looking at pics with DD... low key but still awake

ArianaCR · « **Reply #38 on:** January 29, 2013, 18:26:40 pm »

Okay, thanks so much for the encouragement. I was able to push all the A times to at least 3 hrs and I am getting two 1.5 hr naps a day now with no wakings during. PHEW! Unfortunately, the night wakings haven't changed. Last night he was up 6 times, 3 of which took about an hour to settle each. I think it might be that he lost the ability to sleep independently. He used to be put down awake with no props and go to sleep with minimal crying AND he could sleep through the night. Now it takes a LOT of effort on my part (rocking, nursing, singing, pacifier, etc) and he gets very spun up (screaming, head rolling). What do you guys think and what do you think I should do?

*Kara* · « **Reply #39 on:** January 30, 2013, 22:47:08 pm »

What does his EASY look like now? That's a load of NWing! EEK!

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Author Topic: 9 month old waking 7 times a night (Read 5275 times)