3 hr NW! What do we do today?

[lily_layne]

Last night was our worst night ever.  On Thursday night, DD (4 mo, 3 wks old)  was up for just over an hour (after a week of STTN from 8 to and I thought that was bad but this was way worse.  DD woke up at 10:30 and did not go back to sleep until 1:15!!!!! When she first woke up, I tried sh/pat to resettle but it wasn't even close to working so I fed her and she was wide awake and wanting to play.  I rocked her for a long time and she seemed to be drifting off but then her eyes would open and she'd smile.  At 11:30, I put her in the swing and she talked to herself for 20 minutes and then it was quiet for about ten minutes and then she started screaming.  I fed her again to calm her down and then she was smiling and playful.  I put her in the swing again and she smiled and played and finally fell asleep with her mantra cry at 1:15.  When I went to go get her at 8:30 this morning she was awake and calm and it currently very happy.  I thought she'd be fussy after such a bad night.

Our EASY the last 2 days was:
Thursday:
WU and E: 7:30
S: 9:30-11:45
E: 12
S: 1:45 - 3:30
E: 3:45
S: 5:20-6
E: 6:10
BT: 8:30 - Started WD at 7:30 but she was definitely UT so took a while to get to sleep.
NW: 11:30-12:45, 4:30 (fed)

Friday:
WU and E: 8:10
S: 10:30-12
E: 12:10
S: 2:20-3:05 - She fought going to sleep.  I tried resettling but she was wide awake and happy.
E: 4:00
S: 5:30-6:10 - She fought going to sleep for 45 minutes.
E: 6:20
BT: 8 - I think she was OT because there were a lot of jerks as she went to sleep.
NW: 9:00 (settled with her paci and patting), 10:30-1:15

I'm totally confused about what's causing the NW - UT? OT? A great universal mystery??.  I know OT can cause long NW but our days have been pretty good lately (some 40-45 afternoon naps) and I know some of her naps are UT naps.  We have had multiple days in the past with way worse/less napping and we've never had anything like this.  Usually it's just an extra NW and occasionally an EW if we've had a few bad days in a row.  We did have a bad run Thurs-Sun of last week that led to some extra NW but by Monday she was back to a good routine and STTN. The only thing we've been doing different lately is letting her have a longer CN especially when she short naps in the pm - we used to cap it at 20 minutes and I'm wondering if that's too much sleep for her too late in day.

Any ideas about the cause of this?  What should I do with her today - aim for less sleep or more sleep? Long or short CN? More or less A time?

She had her 4 mo. immunizations on Wednesday.  Could this be part of the problem?

Sorry for the really long post.  I'm just exhausted and desperate to prevent another long NW tonight.

[lily_layne]

I forgot to mention that she usually sleeps in her crib.  Using the swing last night was exhausted AP

[Erin M]

The immunizations could be part of it, but my first thought was that you need a shorter cat nap.  If she's fighting naps you may need to increase your A time.

[lily_layne]

Thanks.  I was thinking we might need a shorter catnap but then was second guessing myself and thinking maybe she was OT and needed the extra sleep and I think the long cat naps just made things worse.  I think I need to learn to trust my instincts!  I think she is ready for an increase in A time also because I've done a lot of work on extending her naps and it worked for a few weeks and now we're back to 40 min naps, 60 if we're lucky. 

Yesterday was not a good day - all short naps so I had a hard time figuring out what A time to go with.  I thought for sure she was getting more A time overall yesterday and that would help with the NW but I realized after I put her in bed that she'd gotten the same amount of A time as most other days because we ended up with an 11 hour day because of the short naps - oops.  She woke up at 12:30 ready to play but I was able to get her back to sleep in an hour so it was an improvement.  I was second guessing again last night whether it was a UT or OT wake-up because she was just laying calmly with her eyes open as I patted her but I've noticed sometimes when she wakes up after a good sleep she just lays very still with her eyes open so I think it's UT.

If she wakes up tonight and is ready to play, should I just leave her if she starts "talking" or should I keep working at putting her to sleep?

[lily_layne]

On days when she has two short naps, do I let her have a longer catnap or keep it short?

[Erin M]

Unless she's crying like she needs you, I'd just let her be at night,  sometimes they'll settle back to sleep.

I might try a 45 minute cat nap if you get two shorter naps, but it's hard as there's already so much OT going on already!

[lily_layne]

Yesterday we had two UT naps (1 h and 1 h 15) so I went with a 1/2 hour catnap.  Last night was an improvement.  She woke up at 12:30 but I was able to settle her in under and hour and she seemed like she wanted to go back to sleep.  She was up again at 3 with some really cranky crying so I think it was teething pain.  She would go back to sleep easily and then wake up again in a few minutes but DH handled it and had her asleep by 4.  She cried again at 5:30 but there were really long pauses between cries and didn't sound like she needed me, so I took your advice and let her be and she went back to sleep on her own

I increased her A time a bit more this morning and she didn't fight the nap so we'll see how the rest of the day and tonight go.

[Erin M]

Good luck, sounds like good progress there!

[lily_layne]

Last night was awful again   I'm not sure what's causing the multiple NW and if there's anything I can do to fix them.  Since nights have been no good and naps aren't much better, yesterday I just decided to watch for tired signs instead of the clock.  Our EASY looked like this:
WU and E: 8:15 (I woke her)
A: 8:15-9:40
S: 9:40-11:30 - woke up playing and talking
A: 11:30-12 (in her crib)
E: 12
A: 12-2:30
S: 2:30-4:00 - woke up screaming and then happy
A: 4 - 6:15
S: 6:15-6:35
E: 6:40
A: 6:40-7:50
WD: 7:50
S: 8:15
NW: 9:30 (settled with her paci and patting), 10:30 (fed and patted to sleep), 12:30 (patted for 1/2 hr), 2:30 (fed, patted, and put in swing), 4:30 (settled herself)
WU: 7

During the day she was active and happy except for the odd fussy bit caused by teething. She didn't fight any of her naps.  She is happy again this morning and went down easily for her nap after 2 h 15 of A time.

Any tips or suggestions?

[Erin M]

The only thing that I see is that you've got her doing nearly a full A time after a very short cat nap -- after a 20 minute nap, you'd probably need to put her down much earlier. 

If teething is an issue, have you tried any teething meds to see if they make a difference?

[lily_layne]

Good point about the long A time after the short cat nap.  It's what we usually do (we have tried less A time but it never works) but that's on days when she has good naps.  I think that was maybe the cause of the 9:30 wake up.

For teething she wears an amber anklet and if she seems uncomfortable, I give her Advil.  Is there something you recommend?

Last night was the worst yet She had a great day - I pushed her A time to 2 h 15 and got 2 great naps (2 1/2 and 2 hrs - I had to wake her from both).  We ended the day with a short cat nap and her usual bedtime so things were looking promising. (I noticed she was just as happy on short nap days as she was with the long naps). She was up screaming at 10:30 so I fed her and she settled to sleep in her crib with a few pats.  At 12 she began crying on and off.  I left her until the crying intensified.  I fed her and tried settling her and she was talking and playing.  At 1:30, I put her in the swing and she played some more and then began crying at 2.  When I picked her up, she began screaming so I fed her to calm her down and then she wanted to play again.  She finally put herself to sleep in the swing at 3:15.  The cry she was giving at 12, was her "I'm awake, come and play cry" and I'm not sure what to do about those because if I go to her she just gets angrier when I try to put her back to sleep.  I think she fussed a few times at 5 but I'm not sure.

I really don't know what to do about this.  It seems that she's waking every 2 hours no matter what the day is like but if she's had lots of sleep in the day, she is ready to play.  On Sunday and Monday nights (days with shorter naps), she woke up with a cranky cry and wanted to go back to sleep right away.  I hate how much AP I'm doing - I'm just so exhausted, I don't know what else to do.

I just don't know how she could go from STTN or only 1 hunger waking to this so suddenly. 

What are some better ways to handle the NWs?  I'm thinking that our routine is not the issue (but I could be wrong) because the wakings happen (only the length changes) no matter what our day is like, what else could cause this? 

She does go to sleep with a paci (a few minutes of sucking and then spits it out) but I wouldn't classify it as a prop because we've never had a replugging issue and she can go to sleep without it.  Is it possible that it's suddenly become a prop that's causing these issues?

[lily_layne]

The last 2 nights her wake up times have been the same (10:15/10:30) and (12:15/12:30).  Is she starting to get into habitual waking?  Should I try w2s?

[lily_layne]

sorry for all the questions and for being all over the map. I'm so tired that it's hard to gather my thoughts.

I just put her down and she put herself to sleep (she rarely does that - hurray for small victories!). If she's having a long nap, should i wake her at 2 h or leave her sleeping?

Thanks for your help and advice. I really appreciate having someone to help with thi.

[Erin M]

For teething she wears an amber anklet and if she seems uncomfortable, I give her Advil. 

No, that's pretty much what we do (never tried the amber, but some ladies on here swear by them).

I just put her down and she put herself to sleep (she rarely does that - hurray for small victories!). If she's having a long nap, should i wake her at 2 h or leave her sleeping?

I may have missed you here, but I'd let her sleep.  What was her A time before this nap?  I would try it again. 

I'm thinking that our routine is not the issue (but I could be wrong) because the wakings happen (only the length changes) no matter what our day is like, what else could cause this? 

This is what I'm wondering too -- it does sound like teething could be an issue, but TBH your wakings sound like more than just teeth.  I'd say routine in that it would cause the long awake, wanting to play times in the MOTN -- she's kind of young for the 3-2 switch but it kind of sounds like it to me in some ways -- maybe just the beginnings of it?  There's some info on that here: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months -- it could also be that she just needs some more A time during the day (which of course leads to dropping the cat nap).  But I'd have to think there's something else there -- maybe the combination of teeth causing the wakings and routine lengthening them? 

She does go to sleep with a paci (a few minutes of sucking and then spits it out) but I wouldn't classify it as a prop because we've never had a replugging issue and she can go to sleep without it.  Is it possible that it's suddenly become a prop that's causing these issues?

None of mine ever took a paci -- but if it was a prop I'd expect that she'd drop back to sleep as soon as you gave it back to her and that doesn't sound like it's the case at all. 

sorry for all the questions and for being all over the map. I'm so tired that it's hard to gather my thoughts.

It's ok, I totally understand.  I was thinking my response was all over the map too, so they go together well. 

The last 2 nights her wake up times have been the same (10:15/10:30) and (12:15/12:30).  Is she starting to get into habitual waking?  Should I try w2s?

2 nights don't necessarily make a habit -- that 10/10:15 waking really reminds me of an OT waking.

Just wondering, have you ruled out hunger as well?  My ds had a monster growth spurt at 5 months, lasted about a week and then he proceeded to grow out of all his clothes (literally, I had to go out and buy him new ones!).  Long shot, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Also, any new skills going on -- developmental stuff?  There's a lot of that at this age as well and it can really mess with sleep.

[lily_layne]

Thanks for the quick reply.  She woke up happy at 1h30 so I didn't need to make the decision about waking her or not.  I went for 2 h 15 A time so I tried it again this afternoon and she mantra cried for a few minutes and then fell asleep.  Hopefully she has another good nap.  I didn't count any time she spent on her own before I went to get her - I'm finding that it always goes better if I only count from the time I get her.  Maybe the time on her own is too restful to count as A time, iykwim?  I'm happy that we at least have some good naps and IS happening - it helps make up for the frustration of the night:)

she's kind of young for the 3-2 switch but it kind of sounds like it to me in some ways -- maybe just the beginnings of it?

I've read the info and I've been wondering this too.  I know she's young, but she's always been ahead of the curve as far as A times.  She was 2 weeks overdue and completely skipped the sleepy newborn stage so I wouldn't be surprised if she is ready for the transition.  We noticed a while ago that a 15-20 min CN and then 1h45 until BT always seemed to work best and rereading the info makes me think that we're kind of already transitioning.  Should we work on dropping the CN or keep going with capping it? If we get a long wake up tonight, should I stick with the current A times for a few days or start lengthening them?

I'd have to think there's something else there -- maybe the combination of teeth causing the wakings and routine lengthening them? 

I was thinking that too.  Glad to know that I'm maybe on the right track for figuring this out.  I can handle the multiple wake ups - it's the length that's so frustrating and exhausting.

Thanks for the reassurance that it's not a prop issue.  I was starting to get down on myself for letting her use a paci. 

have you ruled out hunger as well?

I was told there typically isn't a growth spurt at this age, but I'm with you - I think it's part of the issue because she's eating like a little piggy when I'm feeding her at night.  I've been offering my breast quite frequently during the day to get more calories in her, but she's not really interested.

Also, any new skills going on -- developmental stuff?

She started rolling over at 2 months but then didn't do it for a long while and has started again and she's trying hard to sit on her own so that could be part of the problem.

I can't thank you enough for you help and advice!  With your advice and guidance, I've come to the conclusion that what's happening is a perfect storm of teething, growth spurt, developmental stuff and a bit of a routine problem, does that sound right??? 

[Erin M]

I know she's young, but she's always been ahead of the curve as far as A times.  She was 2 weeks overdue and completely skipped the sleepy newborn stage so I wouldn't be surprised if she is ready for the transition.

Then you might be there!  My dd1 was a week late and she generally made those transitions early too.  I really think their gestational age makes a big difference in these early milestones -- being born at 41 weeks (in her case) and being born at 37.5 weeks (in the case of my ds) made a difference for mine -- ds was in that sleepy newborn phase for what seemed like forever, while dd1 never really had one. 

I've been offering my breast quite frequently during the day to get more calories in her, but she's not really interested.

Frustrating.  Mine would never eat more during the day either, had to get it all in at night.  In your case, since she was late, it could be the 6 month growth spurt coming early too -- or just one that she's decided to have on her own schedule.  We must teach these LOs to read the books so we know what's going on at all times. 

I've come to the conclusion that what's happening is a perfect storm of teething, growth spurt, developmental stuff and a bit of a routine problem, does that sound right???

I think so.  I'd keep working on stretching your A times a bit, medicate for teething if necessary, and try to weather through the developmental stuff.  This too shall pass, right? 

[lily_layne]

Then you might be there!  My dd1 was a week late and she generally made those transitions early too.  I really think their gestational age makes a big difference in these early milestones -- being born at 41 weeks (in her case) and being born at 37.5 weeks (in the case of my ds) made a difference for mine -- ds was in that sleepy newborn phase for what seemed like forever, while dd1 never really had one. 

I agree about gestational age making a difference.  I'm sure DD is ready for the transition.


Last night was much better.  Our day and night was:
7:30 - I think she was awake and quiet - I didn't go in
Get up and E: 8:00
S: 9:15-10:45 - She went to sleep on her own - no paci or patting
A and E: 10:50-2:10
S: 2:10 - 3:45 - IS again (First time she's gone to sleep on her own twice in one day!)
A and E: 3:50-5:50
S: 5:50-6:10 - She fought this one a bit - I rocked her
A and E: 6:10-8:20
S: 8:20
NW: 10:30 (paci and quick pat), 12:00 (fed and asleep by 12:30), I think she fussed a bit sometime after but she went back to sleep quickly
WU: 7

I think the amount of daytime sleep was better yesterday because she was not wanting to play in the MOTN.  It's the amount of A time that I'm not sure about.  I know I just need to do some tweaking with the catnap and possibly A times because I think she's a bit OT by BT.  Before the bad nights started a 20 min catnap and 1h45-1h55 before bed was perfect (she went to sleep fairly quickly and there were no OT wake-ups) but then she started fighting BT.  I'm not sure how much A time to do before BT now.  I'm also not sure if I should stretch her other A times a bit yet because of the IS.  I'm thinking they're pretty right on if she's going to sleep independently (but yesterday may have been a lucky day - we'll see how today goes . 

Do you have any recommendations for changes to our routine?

[Erin M]

Falling asleep independently is such a nice thing!  That being said, I would think that you actually need some more A time.  I noticed that her first A time is the shortest -- has she always been one who needs a shorter first A time (as some babies are just like that).  Her naps are pretty good, but I'm almost thinking that if you pushed her A time a little bit and got a longer nap then you'd end up running out of time for the cat nap.  With her fighting it so hard, it would probably be easier without it anyway -- and it may be that you'll have a few days without a cat nap and one with while you're transitioning.  At any rate, I'd push slowly, maybe just by 10 minutes the first day.  FWIW, I could always get mine to fall asleep relatively easily when they were UT, as well as when I got their A time right.  I think with ds I would put him down undertired on purpose sometimes as I knew he'd actually fall asleep without me (paid for it later in the day though...).  I feel like I'm rambling...anyway, I think you need some more A time, though not a ton.  It sounds like you're making some good progress overall though!

[lily_layne]

Sorry - I just reread my post and realized that I put the wrong time for her am nap. It was at 10:15-11:45 making her am and pm A time the same which is what we usually do.

Her naps are pretty good, but I'm almost thinking that if you pushed her A time a little bit and got a longer nap then you'd end up running out of time for the cat nap.

That was my plan and then I wasn't sure if I should just stick with where I'm at because of the IS thing.  Although she hasn't done it much, DD only falls asleep on her own if the A time is exactly right, if I put her down UT she just screams bloody murder! That said, we usually do get a longer nap if I stretch her A time and help her to sleep.  However, I'm willing to stretch the A times and help her get to sleep if necessary just so we can get this transition over with or do you think I'd ruin a good thing with the IS if I did that?  What do you think would be a good total A time - 2 h 30 or more than that?

No real improvement last night.  She took forever to settle at BT with lots of whimpering and movement and then was up at 10:30 (I fed her hoping to eliminate the midnight waking), cried on and off between 12 and 1 and then fed (she nursed for a looong time - I'm sure she was comfort nursing), and cried and self-settled at 4:30 and 6:30.  She was doing a lot of whimpering and writhing as she nursed and she rarely nurses for so long so I'm beginning to suspect some discomfort.  Could it be discomfort or pain waking her this frequently?  The wake times have been the same almost every night - how many nights does it take before we get into habit waking territory?

[Erin M]

That said, we usually do get a longer nap if I stretch her A time and help her to sleep.  However, I'm willing to stretch the A times and help her get to sleep if necessary just so we can get this transition over with or do you think I'd ruin a good thing with the IS if I did that? 

I *think* at this point if you stretch very slowly and don't push it, she should still go down independently.  Even trying to lengthen her A times by just 5 minutes or so every 2-3 days, keeping things really low key will get you there.  When I stretched A time with my ds (he was always my hardest to stretch with), we'd end his A time up in his room with the lights already low and we'd just look at books or play with some quiet toys on the floor. 

She was doing a lot of whimpering and writhing as she nursed and she rarely nurses for so long so I'm beginning to suspect some discomfort.  Could it be discomfort or pain waking her this frequently?

It really could be -- she could have quite a few teeth moving at once underneath the gums (sometimes harder for them than when they actually pop through!) -- the fact that she's falling asleep independently at some points in the day right now is a good sign -- I think your evenings are off because she probably needs to lose the cat nap -- she's also waking and putting herself back to sleep at some points in the night which is another good sign.  Not sure how you feel about teething meds (forgive me if we've already talked about it, I get threads mixed up sometimes!) but you could try them one night to see if it makes a difference. 

[lily_layne]

This too shall pass, right? 

Thanks for the reminder!  That phrase has pretty much become my mantra - I repeat it while sitting with DD in the middle night and it really helps keep me patient.

After a very late BT (I wanted to rest so I put DH in charge - he opted for an extra long A time hoping to tire her out - he ended up with a 30 min OT nap from 8:30-9 and then a baby who wanted to play!) we had a much better night.  There was some insane screaming at midnight but DH settled her in minutes just by patting and we didn't hear from her again until morning!  Yay for progress!

Thanks for the tips on stretching A time slowly and ending in her room.  I think that will work well for DD and will hopefully help us get rid of the catnap in the near future.  When we run out of time for the CN but it's still too long until BT, how much A time do you recommend before EBT?

Not sure how you feel about teething meds (forgive me if we've already talked about it, I get threads mixed up sometimes!) but you could try them one night to see if it makes a difference. 

We have tried Advil but it didn't seem to help.  I bought some Camilia homeopathic drops so we'll give them a shot.

[Erin M]

Since you're hovering near 3 hours on A time, I'd try to stick with that and not try to lengthen it too much -- you'd be ok aiming for a 12.5/13 hour night right now if she's only giving you two nap, so with your wake up time at 7/7:30 you can aim for 6/6:30.

[lily_layne]

We're only at 2h10/2h20 A time so we've got a ways to go until 3 h.  I wish we were there already - this transition is difficult  

The NWs are a lot better.  Last night there was only 1 hunger waking and I put her down awake and she put herself to sleep which made for one happy mama.

Thank you so much for helping me through this NW nightmare!  I am very grateful for your advice and support.

[Erin M]

Great!  (Though sorry for getting the A times mixed up!)
So glad things are getting better!